[siberian]

It's more that the above if they want to sell Tregs or high end cars other than Jettas etc.

Lexus, Acura and Infinity didn't arrive in the 70s and tried to sell a car for 4 times more than their average vehicle. It was done gradually, I remember the name change from Datsun to Nissan created some confusion. But they steadily chipped away at the reticence of customers paying that much for a Datsun. They invested in advertising, in quality dealerships which we NOT where the average Joe went to buy a Corolla. They trained their staff both in customer relations but also in servicing their vehicles.

I'm not surprised by the market slip by VW. They are for all intents and purposes non existent outside the major cities. There's no brand recognition nor even remotely any association of VW with a car in the 60 or 70 thousand dollars.

They can become number one, simply by the number of companies they own (Porsche, Bugatti, Lambo, Audi, VW...) but the actual sales in the US which population wise is about the same as the EU is paltry.

siberian

 

[gregtay]

Not to blatantly disagree with you but they already had this with the V10TDI...it didn't seem to work at all. Nobody cared or knew it existed, most traditional TDI buyers just thought it was overkill, and they didn't show up until the V6 TDI came along. I don't see why it would be different this time around?

V8 CRD diesels are fairly common, any '08 and up domestic diesel Ford is a 32 valve V8 twin turbo CRD...so as far as "halo" car or something being exotic, a V10 sure is a lot more exotic than a V8 diesel.

Very true.. heck.. back in 2007 i was looking at a Touareg and told them i wanted one because i had a big boat to tow. They never mentioned the V10. When i went to leave i looked at the VW flyer they gave me and saw the V10tDI option... i stopped and asked "what about one of these?" Sales guys looked at me funny, laughed, and said.. "not really an option." I asked if it was discountined... he said no... but no one buys them and they don't have any and don't plan on getting any. With that attitude.. no wonder it wasn't a huge hit. Let's face it... at V10 with an MSRP at $78K seems silly to poeple in America... they just don't understand that an SUV can be amazing on all levels of technology and drive... and when the Chevy dealer is giving away loaded Tahoes at $30K... and sadly lots of people are happy with what the tahoe offers.

Last weekend was kind of fun... we drop up to the mountains to cut down a tree. Ranger stopped us at the base of the forest service road and said the road was really ice and full of snow.. 1 lane, so lots of people in the ditch from trying to pass, etc. Asked if i had chains.. i said no, but i have snow/ice tires. He said that won't help, and then bascially acted like i was in a Honda CRV. He did let me go up.. but recommended against it. The Touareg never missed a beat. We got close to the top of the road and there were a bunch of trucks off to the side and we dicided to keep going. LAdy stopped me and said the snow was too deep and people couldn't get up the road and further because it was too steep. I said ok.. and kept driving sneaking by all the cars. Everyone looked at us like were were nuts.. like "there the heck does he think he is going." Got to the hill and every 4x4 known to man was trying to get up, around and over.. all couldn't even get started. I stopped.. locked up both diffs, raised up the air susp.. and simply drove up and over the hill in deep snow. It was amazing. Yes... the Touareg is complicated and expensive compared to most other cars out there... but it is so worth it! Some how the typical American mindset doesn't equate value of the features of the Touareg (or a motor like the V10/4.2TDI) to cost you need to spend to have it. it's just not the American way of thinking... all they can see is a soccer mom mobile... nothing more. Heck.. on the wakeboard forums i visit they are all convinced you can't tow a wakeboat without a 3/4 ton truck.. it's crazy!

 

[copaz]

To contextualize this discussion a bit: VW China just announced in Germany's Financial Times that it intends to secure its 5-10 year technology and market advantage compared to Chinese car makers by broadening the range of VW cars to be developed for the Chinese market, incl. electric vehicles. The goal is to move significant R&D to China (such as building a new electric vehicle development plant) and to reduce and eventually eliminate the need to import parts from Germany into China. This will get rid off Chinese import duties and significantly reduce production costs. Vahland (VW China's boss) emphasized that China has become such a major focus for VW that VW China will increasingly seek independence from the German VW head quarters (yes, he actually said that).

Bottom line: With VW Germany focusing on Europe and South America (esp. Brazil), VW increasingly sees itself as a three continent company. And North America isn't one of them.

 

[siberian]

Couple that with a worthless currency and indeed that may be the sad reality we deserve for saving AIG, Freddy Mac and the banks.

siberian

 

[WilyB]

When I configure an Euro V8TDI the way I like it, air, rear dif, 4 zone etc., on an European VW web site, I have a 90,000 Euros machine, or $119,000 machine, 20% VAT included. You remove 20%, you're still talking about a $95K SUV.

 

[OILSLURPER]

They can become number one, simply by the number of companies they own (Porsche, Bugatti, Lambo, Audi, VW...) but the actual sales in the US which population wise is about the same as the EU is paltry.

siberian

I tend to agree. Down here, where we are the land of plenty, but few people, new car competition is pretty rife. I see VW doing well with the Polo, Golf and Jetta range in 2011. They seem to be making gains on commercials as well. The Treg is a bit of a low seller here as there is too much to choose in the sub-$60K range. VAG have the acumen with their collective boffins and we'll see more of that in future cars. US makers in the mean time (Ford, GM and Chrysler) will be doing it tough till they get some leads from our version of GM (Holden) and Ford who still compete well with good local models. Making cars is a now a whole new ball game with good quality Korean cars and now China on the move and they will get it right very quick, maybe not on consistent quality, but with value for money (I'd never buy one though).

 

[siberian]

WilyB, if our currency were strong we would be looking at a 50k SUV.

siberian

 

[NIN10DO]

Isn't that what a fully loaded range rover would go for anyway?

I don't know about you guys...but I'd buy a V8 TDI touareg over a fully loaded Range Rover any day of the week.

I really wish they had brought the V8 TDI to NA...but on the bright side, it not being here keeps my V10 still a bit of a mythical beast

 

[nickm]

Bottom line: With VW Germany focusing on Europe and South America (esp. Brazil), VW increasingly sees itself as a three continent company. And North America isn't one of them.

I think they ARE putting a focus on North America, maybe just not the way we want them to. The new VW plant in the US will be pumping out the Passat replacement and likely the new SUV (which is cheaper and bigger than the Treg). The Jetta is already made in Mexico and in its current form is only sold in North America. Sounds like VW is just regionalizing its product lineup to try and cater to local tastes.

Who knows, maybe they will try this regional lineup and also have a few global models where they try and retain their traditional client base (ie: the GTI, EOS, Touareg)

 

[siberian]

Nickm, I remember when I had the Westphalia camper in Europe - mid 80s. You could go to the end of the continent, the tip of Italy or the edge of Spain and there'd be a VW dealer or someone there who had parts etc. (Lord help you if you showed up with a Ferd or Chebby and asked for a water pump).

In the US after the Beetle and box van of the 60s all that disappeared. You now have States like I believe Kansas and Alaska where if you're lucky you have one dealer per State and hardly any knowhow on how to fix these exotic beasts.

There may be a billion plus Chinese, but most of them are living in poverty just outside the glamor cities...

siberian

 

[WilyB]

There may be a billion plus Chinese, but most of them are living in poverty just outside the glamor cities...

I was talking with a friend in Beijing earlier today. He told me that car sales in China topped 1,340,000 for the month of November. 16,400,000 for the first 11 months of 2010.

Out of these, 1,820,000 were VWs.

Volkswagen’s nine-month operating profit in China more than doubled to 1.32 billion euros. VW, the first overseas carmaker to enter China three decades ago, will spend 10.6 billion euros in the country through 2015 as part of an expansion to add two factories and double production to 3 million cars annually. VW currently has nine Chinese factories.

Volkswagen to Sell Record 7 Million Cars in 2010 as Chinese Business Booms - Bloomberg

 

[siberian]

Interesting. And how many were top of the line Touaregs? A 90k euro car would be like 11 million rinmimbi no?

The CFO went to China a few years back and was impressed with what she saw. She was appalled however at the pollution but also as soon as you stepped out of the glitter streets and hotels the poverty was pervasive as was the lack of infrastructure.

But hey 16 million cars in this economy...

siberian

 

[nickm]

I was talking with a friend in Beijing earlier today. He told me that car sales in China topped 1,340,000 for the month of November. 16,400,000 for the first 11 months of 2010.

Out of these, 1,820,000 were VWs.

In light of these numbers its kind of obvious why they aren't putting any energy into the 500 or so V8 TDI Touaregs they might sell over here...

 

[copaz]

I think they ARE putting a focus on North America, maybe just not the way we want them to. The new VW plant in the US will be pumping out the Passat replacement and likely the new SUV (which is cheaper and bigger than the Treg). The Jetta is already made in Mexico and in its current form is only sold in North America. Sounds like VW is just regionalizing its product lineup to try and cater to local tastes.

Who knows, maybe they will try this regional lineup and also have a few global models where they try and retain their traditional client base (ie: the GTI, EOS, Touareg)

You are quite right, NickM. I was thinking more of R&D, investments, dealer networks, future focus... It seems that in NA they are simply selling whatever happens to sell here and building whatever happens to be cheaper to build here. Sort of a 'might as well' scenario. My point is that I don't hear of announcements in Germany that the US market really matters to them. A few years ago that was different. At that point they were still trying with the other German manufacturers to persuade Americans to go diesel. I don't see much of that energy anymore. PS: I'm no expert on this. I just happen to read German papers and watch German TV a fair bit.

 

[volkswagendude]

Isn't that what a fully loaded range rover would go for anyway?

I don't know about you guys...but I'd buy a V8 TDI touareg over a fully loaded Range Rover any day of the week.

I really wish they had brought the V8 TDI to NA...but on the bright side, it not being here keeps my V10 still a bit of a mythical beast

Don't know about that one...Maybe comparing European version versus European version yes, since the T-REG over on that side is more off road capable, and does have air suspension. However as things stand here, go to the Land Rover website, and you will be blown away at how boring a model of an EGG we have to deal with here when comparing side to side, pricing all considered and factored in! I just went to the landrover.com website to "build" one, and was just mind boggled at all the options and "a la carte" they offer to the consumer. On just interior finishes alone, they offer 18 versions . In the USA, you can have a nicely equipped Ranger Rover Sport for under $70000 with air suspension and rear locker. Moving up to the supercharged one, starting price is $75000, but you really don't need anything else the way they equip these puppies, and they are fully off-road capable out of the box. I believe all the "lesser models" offer rear locking diff in their "a la carte" list for a mere $650 as a stand alone option which is great! The significant costly options for the supercharged one seem to be a $2000 for adaptive cruise control and emergency brake assist, and a $1200 pack for Tow Hitch Assist, Tow Assist, Surround Camera, AFS Headlamps, and AHBA; $2500 for rear seat entertainment, etc. Again, they offer the choice. Oh yes, ALL Ranger Rover Sports come with air suspension as standard equipment , even on the base models. 510 HP and 461 of torque on the supercharged version, coupled with its fuel economy, is where the VAG V8 TDI would excel, that is a given. Alas...

So my point to writing all that, is some of us who do like to dream in Technicolor of a dream Touareg that doesn't exist anymore, and wish that VAG would offer an options list to choose from just like Land Rover, PLUS, at least offer an engine that is fun and comparible to the 510HP supercharged Rover.

At the end of the day, guys like me a in a few years(when my Egg ages enough) will just have to move up, whether it be Audi, BMW or Land Rover. I'm not the kind of guy that gives a rats ass about image and portrayal to my neighbors, like some are in this society of badge image. All I want is something that I can call a toy. Even if it is a daily driver(even better!)Those of you that have the inner boy in you, that wishes to be satisfied, and have financial flexibility to support that fun need, know exactly what I'm talking about.

Alas, I the minority have spoken.

 

[nickm]

You are quite right, NickM. I was thinking more of R&D, investments, dealer networks, future focus... It seems that in NA they are simply selling whatever happens to sell here and building whatever happens to be cheaper to build here. Sort of a 'might as well' scenario. My point is that I don't hear of announcements in Germany that the US market really matters to them. A few years ago that was different. At that point they were still trying with the other German manufacturers to persuade Americans to go diesel. I don't see much of that energy anymore. PS: I'm no expert on this. I just happen to read German papers and watch German TV a fair bit.

I agree with you 100%...they are just saying "meh...Americans think VW is a cheap brand so lets give them cheap...".

On the diesel push, Mercedes and VW really seem to be doing diesel business (as they have been since the 70s), I'm not sure how BMW and Audi are doing, but the BMW dealers I've talked to seem to just want to get rid of their X5d...I also see a LOT of very low mileage diesel SUVs for sale, so maybe new entrants into the market aren't sticking to them. So all to say I agree, the diesel push seems dead.

 

[WilyB]

Interesting. And how many were top of the line Touaregs?

True, probably only a few percent, but still enough so that two or three local companies would produce RNS-510 look alike Navigation systems.

 

[volkswagendude]

I agree with you 100%...they are just saying "meh...Americans think VW is a cheap brand so lets give them cheap...".

On the diesel push, Mercedes and VW really seem to be doing diesel business (as they have been since the 70s), I'm not sure how BMW and Audi are doing, but the BMW dealers I've talked to seem to just want to get rid of their X5d...I also see a LOT of very low mileage diesel SUVs for sale, so maybe new entrants into the market aren't sticking to them. So all to say I agree, the diesel push seems dead.

IF this holds to be true, then this all fits in the North American society being at fault thing I wrote. If this is true, this basically tells us that people in this "market segment" of mainstream upper class, still see VW emblem as nothing to be desired at all, and diesel is still a yukky(at the pumps), noisy, low status alternative. Very sad indeed in all respects. Sad on two counts. Sad that mainstream, everyday type of upper class society STILL is what it is here , and sad that VW has FAILED at making a dent in their pathetic mindset, as Lexus, Infinity have

I guess if this is true, these type of people don't appreciate torque power , and NEVER will, but it has to be said, in this market segment(the North American mainstream upper class one), why would one care about a 6mpg gain when shelling out this kind of cash? Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending that group with that mpg statement...just saying this seems to be the way of thinking as far as BWW, etc type of clientele are concerned. Sad, sad and sad.

 

[clint440]

IF this holds to be true, then this all fits in the North American society being at fault thing I wrote. If this is true, this basically tells us that people in this "market segment" of mainstream upper class, still see VW emblem as nothing to be desired at all, and diesel is still a yukky(at the pumps), noisy, low status alternative. Very sad indeed in all respects. Sad on two counts. Sad that mainstream, everyday type of upper class society STILL is what it is here , and sad that VW has FAILED at making a dent in their pathetic mindset, as Lexus, Infinity have

I guess if this is true, these type of people don't appreciate torque power , and NEVER will, but it has to be said, in this market segment(the North American mainstream upper class one), why would one care about a 6mpg gain when shelling out this kind of cash? Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending that group with that mpg statement...just saying this seems to be the way of thinking as far as BWW, etc type of clientele are concerned. Sad, sad and sad.

I think North American buyers have woken up to the benefits of diesel but the stupid manufacturers just don't broaden their product base. Most 3/4tons and above are ordered with diesels heck its hard to find a gas engine in them anymore, TDIs don't stay in the lot very long, and the small run of Jeep Liberties and Grand Cherokee CRDs are held in high regards. Plus there were a lot of disappointed 1/2 ton truck buyers when the big 3 all bailed out of fielding a 1/2 ton diesel.

consumers buy only what is offered to them and there isn't that much to choose from.

 

[siberian]

WilyB, when I moved to Geneva, Switzerland in 1973 the exchange rate of the dollar to the swiss franc was 3.50 to a dollar. Today it's 97 centimes to a dollar. If we were even close to the original exchange rate which had been that way for near 20 years, we would be talking about a 40k V8TDI.

VWDude, as you stated VW hasn't even tried to make the investment that Lexus etc. made in dealerships (no, you don't go to the same dealer to buy your Corolla as you do to get your RX cross-over Lexus SUV), training, service and quality that Infinity, Acura, Lexus et al made over the last twenty years. I still do not associate VW with a 60k automobile and I believe neither does mainstream. Lastly the absolutely crappy fuel quality (we can't even get anything over 90 octane) in both diesel and premium plus the cost of the TDI engine vs it's actual mpg difference and price makes it unpalatable.

Yes the LR looks great, the a la carte is something sorely lacking from most builders. You need to buy 3 grand of useless stuff to get a 400 dollar item you want. But having worked on piles of British cars in the 70s (Hillman Imp, MGs, MG Midgets, Triumphs etc.) they were just a pile of crap. And I guess as I went off Mopar, I just can't see myself getting back into that.

Our hope perhaps is that someone from VW is following this and can make a case. In the meantime, maybe someone who's closer to buying or interested could call an importer and/or the NHTSB and get the scoop about bringing in a V8 TDI.

siberian