[olsonwstn]

A customer has an 04 touareg that I had just replaced a left temp control flap motor , took it for a road test and all was well.Parked it over the weekend because the owner was out of town and then moved it to anothe spot on monday. The new spot was on a slight incline and the left rear wheel barely spun in the dirt.The next day the owner comes to pick up his car and the shifter is locked in park and all kinds of warning lights & chimes went off. Finally had to remove the console to move the lockout mechanism so I could at least get the car into the shop and scan it (no laptop at this time). No communication with several modules and Terminal 15 relay open or short. Thanks to ClubTouareg I was able to locate the Terminal 15 relay under the drivers seat and found the relay has power where it needs it but is not being grounded for activation. I suspect it is controlled by the power module under the dash , correct? I am now at a loss as to where to look next.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Vegas Matt]

I'm wondering if it is a low voltage issue. The "all kinds of warning lights & chimes went off" after a Touareg has been sitting is kind of a tell-tale of low voltage. Since it's an '04, I'd make sure the battery is OK, and that the voltmeter reads spot-on 14v while the engine is running.

I may be way wrong, but that's what I would check before digging in too deep.

Matt

 

[olsonwstn]

Thanks for the quick post. I checked battery voltage witha DVM which shows 14.36 when running. I'm certain I will indeed be digging quite deep this time. Without terminal 15 voltage the ABS,AWD,Steering Angle, Transfer case & TCM modules connot communicate as the VAGCOM scan indicated. When I manually activate the relay everything including the shift lockout solenoid works again, so getting this relay working normally is where I have to focus - I'm pretty sure about this. The big obstacle is the lack of information on this system for me. The pdfs in the tech section were a huge help to getting me started.I now need to find out how the relay is controlled.

Dewey

 

[Vegas Matt]

Hi Dewey,

At 14.36 volts, it sounds like the alternator is pumping out the juice. Could the battery itself be low, and the vehicle is concentrating on charging the battery versus activating consumers (like the T-15 relay)?

Aside from that, this one is beyond me for sure. Only other thing I could think of is try swapping the relay just to make sure the relay is OK, and trace the wiring used to send it the activating voltage to make sure it's not shorted somewhere.

Other than that, good luck!

Matt

PS-Where are you in the world? Which engine is in this baby?

 

[olsonwstn]

No , the battery holds over 12 volts at rest. I did find a wiring diagram on Mitchells OD5 which shows that the relay in question is activated by the Access/Start/Authorization/
Module. It also shows a Access/Start/Authorization/Button , a multiple contact switch with 4 Leds in it. What is that?

Dewey

 

[Vegas Matt]

"Access/Start/Authorization" sounds an awful lot like some sort of interface with the ignition key switch (and possibly the keyless start button). Could this be somehow intertwined into the Immobilizer anti-theft module? Or Kessy (keyless access) module, if this is a V8 with keyless access (black buttons on door handles)?

Maybe, upon turning the key, this access/start/authorization module is supposed to send the signaling voltage to the relay, closing the circuit. Maybe it, for one reason or another, is not sending that voltage.

I just had another thought. You mentioned changing the left temp flap motor. If I remember, the kessy module is tucked under the dash, maybe in close proximity to where you were working. I do recall a discussion a while ago where it was mentioned that the kessy module was difficult to access, and I believe the wiring harness was pretty short, making it hard to work around. Is there a possibility that that modules' wiring came loose while redoing the flap motor? Just a thought...

Matt

 

[olsonwstn]

I believe the keyless start button is a small button in the drivers door handle. This car/truck is a V6 and does not have that button on the handle. As for the module , yes there was fair amount of difficulty involved in changing the flap motor and at one point I almost did unplug the connector to what I think is the Access/Start/Module ( the one closest to the heater) but chose to endure with it still connected. I did , however, unplug a couple of the connectors to the Power Control Module.

Don't take this the wrong way please - should I be posting this in the technical section?

Dewey

 

[Vegas Matt]

Yep, no keyless access on an '04 V6. That blows the Kessy idea...

No offense taken or anything, just trying to help with what I have knowledge of.

The technical section is more a repository of DIY and technical info, so I'd say keep it here in the problems section for now, as it's still unresolved. When/if some new data comes out of this (ie a fix for this problem) a new thread in the technical info section would be helpful for solving future problems for other members.

I'm not sure what other modules there are under there. I would assume at this point that something is not communicating with the solenoid for whatever reason (broken/shorted wire, fried module, etc.). I'd thoroughly check the connections to the Access/Start module and go from there. Other than that, I really don't know what else to try.

Good luck,
Matt

 

[olsonwstn]

I was going over a printout of Vag Com info on this car and noticed the address (05) shows the component as "Kessy".What do you make of that? Can there still a label for Kessy even though it apparently doesn't really seem to exist on this vehicle?
The important fault code here is
00185 - Control Circuit:relay for supply voltage terminal 15
009-Open or short to ground

Vag Coms site doesn't list this code and therefore no help tips- so here I am again.

By the way - you asked before where I am - in rural Northeast where technology can be a stranger but I came originally from a not so rural place.

Dewey

 

[Vegas Matt]

After reading that, I'm venturing a guess that the "Kessy" module is one in the same with the Access/Start module that you seem to be having trouble with. I always thought it was kessy just with keyless access, but this proves that thought/theory wrong.

Personally, it sounds to me like it could be an issue with something in the kessy module, or the kessy module is sensing a problem downstream towards the relay. If it's downstream, it may be wiring at the kessy, or the relay may be bad or have a bad signal wire connection. I'd triple-check all the wiring connections at the modules around where you were working, just to make sure that something didn't get unplugged/knocked loose during the flap repair.

Not to sound entirely dumb here, but does the Touareg start and stay running, or does it start and die? If it dies, have you tried a second key?

Location-wise, I was just wondering which country you were in, as different countries have different options, packages, etc. Sounds like US. I'm a former Ohioan (somewhat rural), now living in the oven (Vegas)

Good luck,
Matt

 

[olsonwstn]

I too assume that Kessy is more or less a generic term applied to a keyless security system. Yes, the engine will start & stay running for as long as I want. The measuring block feature indicates Terminal 15 status is on so that tells me the module is sending a correct signal to the relay - it's just not getting all the way there do to a bad wire or pin connection. Is it safe to simply unplug the module so I can backprobe the wire to the relay or could this be a situation where the module will have to be programmed again before the car will start once power has been lost - (just playing safe).

This is happening in Vermont by the way-

Dewey

 

[Vegas Matt]

Honestly, I really don't know. On one hand, I'd be nervous about it, because i've heard many stories about the Immobilizer system becoming active and the Touareg being towed in to the dealer for repair. On the other hand, let's say the main battery were to go dead. It would lose power, albeit much slower than just unplugging it.

I would hope that it would not be as volatile as getting angry about being unplugged, but I really don't know. Hopefully the data it needs is stored in some sort of firmware that doesn't get erased by losing power. I wonder if the Bentley manual might have some info on this...

Good luck,
Matt

 

[olsonwstn]

Matt - got your thinking cap on ?
I put this project off to the side so I could complete some other commitments and now have taken the icy plunge. I first removed the Kessy fuse and then the module to find no connection whatever to the Terminal 15 relay. Ok-broken wire I assumed. Pulled up the mat, stripped open the harness wrapping and located the appropriate wire and chased it back & forth untill I found where it was joined and taped together -so I thought. Removing the tape revealed the 2 wires merely set side by side.Not connected at all. A picture on the side of the relay shows it to be a pretty typical 50amp relay with an additional terminal for sensing its status. I then used an ammeter to measure the load required to activate the relay which was the same as most fuel pump relays used in VWs - .15 - .16 amps. This let out the possible theory that the relay only needed an induced signal. It had to have a direct connection to work just as it showed in my wiring diagram . I reconnected the module and checked how the circuit was treated when the key was turned on and it proved to be a solid groung . I took a chance and soldered the wires together . Voila! Everthing works as it should.
Now heres the thing. I'm quite certain that the harness has never been touched in 168k and it makes no sense at all that there has never been a problem of this sort untill now. I also checked for any other possible components that could be used to trigger the relay and found none. If you have any insight here I sure could use some before I hand the car to the customer.

Dewey

 

[Vegas Matt]

Poltergeist. Get that car the hell outta your shop!

Good find though. I'm bone dry on ideas as to how that thing could even function with the broken connection, unless the sheath/harness wrapping was holding it in just enough contact that it never had a problem, until maybe while fixing the flap motor the harness somehow got moved/stretched to where it made intermittent contact, yielding the signal problem.

Exactly where was this wire (dis)connection located at? I doubt something coming in contact with it could have damaged the wire without damaging the rest of the harness too. I too find it odd that it would be of that high mileage with two wires simply touching and then disconnecting, without having a problem before. (By the way, if 168,000 miles is true, this takes the cake for the highest mileage T I've heard of! You have to get that owner on here so we can see how it's been!)

I will say that I have read at least one report where someone in a snowy climate got the carpet/floor wet with snow on their feet, and from it melting it eventually corroded and shorted a wiring harness on the floor there. I forget exactly what all was involved with the repair, but maybe there is an issue with this connection/harness, which would make it susceptible to damage and cause these issues?

Otherwise, I'm stumped, but glad you got it fixed! Congrats on tracking it down!

Matt

 

[olsonwstn]

The wire was just inside the cloth wrapping under the dead pedal.The one from the relay ran up about 3 inches and the looped back down to run parallel to the one coming from the Kessy module. They were not at all connected electrically, ends were snipped clean thru and all insulation left on.The only thing touching was the insulation. The owner used to drive his cars even a lot more than this one , but now he works more from home. He's in real estate and 60k or more annually was not uncommon in the past. Most of his major repairs have been brakes & wheel bearings.

As for the wet carpet issue I personally have seen wires corroded off quite often in all kinds of vehicles. It's not uncommon at all around here and thats what I had expected to find when I lifted the carpet and found the cushion to be totally soaked - dripping like a sponge in the kitchen sink. However, the wire connection in question was fairly well protected and above the real wetness.

I only wish I knew why this problem didn't surface before - Dewey

 

[olsonwstn]

I just wanted to say thanks for all your help. Joining this club was probably the best thing I did to resolve the problem with this car. Your input was of great value as were the pdfs. posted in the tech section by spockcat. I would like to suggest to anyone else who may encounter similar issues with communication problems between modules to check out this link - www.billswebspace/Touaregelectricalsystem.pdf .

It's a 3.4mb download illustrating in block diagrams how these modules work together in 60 pages.

I can only assume that the mysterious wire connection to the relay must have included a fine wire shaped like a staple to bridge the 2 wires , perhaps like fuse. In any event the car is very much fixed and shouldn't experience this problem again.

Thanks again - this site is great! Dewey

 

[Vegas Matt]

Dewey,

You're welcome. I'd also like to thank Spockcat, Depiry, and everyone else that has contributed all this great data we have on here. It makes trying to figure things out and understand how things work on these vehicles much easier. Thanks folks!

Also, glad I could wrap my brain around something more than my usual humdrum that's been (slowly!) going on here. Thanks for giving the grey matter some excercise!

See ya,
Matt

 

[brentfoley]

Thanks

I just experienced the exact same problem with my 04 touareg. Stuck in park, check engine light on and brake fault. I also live in a wet winter climate. I read through this quickly and provided a printout to my dealer and they were able to locate 3 corroded wire under the driver side floor that need the be replaced and the problem was solved.

Thanks

 

[olsonwstn]

You're welcome. Glad to know that my experience was able to help someone else which is what shared information is all about. I spent days on that issue and of course never charged the customer but a fraction of that time in resolving the problem and I know that without having access to the knowlege here I would have spent far more time before stumbling on the solution. My thanks to Club Touareg!

 

[Gmonkey]

OH GOD!!!!!!

Can you PLEASE tell me exactly where the kessy module is....

I'm seriously pulling the hair out of my head with this central and driver open circuit crap..............

That billswebspace linky no worky......