[mpm T2 TDI]

The irony of subsidies and very hard to figure out tax breaks debated on this thread is that they exist in so many places. Oil and gas (and coal) companies still get subsidies and tax breaks. And 100 years ago they were proportional to what alternative energy is getting today.

 

[N_Jay]

The irony of subsidies and very hard to figure out tax breaks debated on this thread is that they exist in so many places. Oil and gas (and coal) companies still get subsidies and tax breaks. And 100 years ago they were proportional to what alternative energy is getting today.

So what is that subsidy per gallon? I'll even settle for a worst case number.

 

[LOtouareg]

So what is that subsidy per gallon? I'll even settle for a worst case number.

Without subsidies we would all be paying roughly $12.75 per gallon for gasoline.

 

[N_Jay]

Without subsidies we would all be paying roughly $12.75 per gallon for gasoline.

Please show your math.

 

[mpm T2 TDI]

So what is that subsidy per gallon? I'll even settle for a worst case number.

Subsidy per gallon is irrelevant. Its an apples to orange comparison of a mature business to new-ish technology.

Lets talk gross numbers...

Big Energy - sans nukes (add another $175-200B) - is $600B since 1950 in 2010 dollars (GBO number). Roughly $6-7B/YR for oil. Total alternative (GBO number) subsidy is $75B and $8-9B/YR.

Why should our tax dollars be subsidizing oil and gas?

 

[N_Jay]

Subsidy per gallon is irrelevant. Its an apples to orange comparison of a mature business to new-ish technology.

Lets talk gross numbers...

Big Energy - sans nukes (add another $175-200B) - is $600B since 1950 in 2010 dollars (GBO number). Roughly $6-7B/YR for oil. Total alternative (GBO number) subsidy is $75B and $8-9B/YR.

Why should our tax dollars be subsidizing oil and gas?

So we are talking pennies or fractions of a penny a gallon. (and it is relevant because on an equal energy basis, these are not even in the noise compared to the waste in solar, wind, corn, etc. (Green energy crap))

Now, to really see what is happening you have to look at what the subsidies are for.
In most cases they are not at all to "prop up" the oil industry as it goes about its business.
They are to specifically encourage parts of the oil industry to do things they would not otherwise do.

It all starts with some politician or public policy group who wants to "make" business bend their way. The subsidy is the bribe!
The Real Truth About Energy Subsidies

 

[nickm]

I'm less stressed about oil subsidies (assuming they exist). Oil & gas employs many many people at high salaries. This is good for everyone regardless of if you are in the Oil/gas business or if you're selling houses or whatever to those employed by the industry.

By contrast, the EV subsidies in my view seem to be less about building out employment and technology, and instead are a "feel good" thing for people who don't even drive. A bit like the horrible eyesores called windmills that barely produce power, but take up huge space and come with a whole basket of other evils.

If the demand for EVs existed you could be sure that Ford, VW, Toyota, GM would be all over this...its the capitalist way. If there's money to be made, you get out there and take people's money. Its not like they don't have the capital, engineering resourves and facilities to build, produce and sell a beast like this.

Unfortunately recharges that take way too long, an insufficient infrastructure and expensive technology make the current EV tech interesting but irrelevant...same idea as the Hydrogen cars BMW and MB have been running for the past decade, essentially free fuel, and water as exhaust output, but the infrastructure and other tech holdbacks make it a no-go.

 

[mpm T2 TDI]

So we are talking pennies or fractions of a penny a gallon. (and it is relevant because on an equal energy basis, these are not even in the noise compared to the waste in solar, wind, corn, etc. (Green energy crap))

Now, to really see what is happening you have to look at what the subsidies are for.
In most cases they are not at all to "prop up" the oil industry as it goes about its business.
They are to specifically encourage parts of the oil industry to do things they would not otherwise do.

It all starts with some politician or public policy group who wants to "make" business bend their way. The subsidy is the bribe!
The Real Truth About Energy Subsidies

Totally irrelivent comparison. Oil and gas have been around for 100 years are imbedded in the every part of our life and economy. We use 375 million gallons of gas/day just in the US. (Not to mention how many wars - and related cost and loss of life - have been and are still fought over the stuff...God Speed John, Travis and Joe...)

Alternative Energy is in early days as just that - an alternative.

I'm no tree hugging greeny, I just say it's time to ween ourselves off fossil fuels (and mainly as an alternative to powering our buildings - I just want a vehicle with electric motors at the wheels with diesel a power plant ).

And like getting off any drug, it'll take commitment (sometimes an intervention), alternatives to our high, and time...

Btw, did you read your attached article? Fascinating...here are a couple of points:

Fosil Fuel Subsidies and Tax Relief 2002-2008
• Totaled approximately $72 billion — while subsidies for renewable energy during that time period rang up at $29 billion...and wait until you see what's in the $29B.
• Foreign Tax Credit ($15,300,000,000) because they claim buisness income outside the US
• Oil and Gas Exploration & Development Expensing ($7,100,000,000) Interesting...so, they need us to pay them to explore and develop?
• Oil and Gas Excess Percentage over Cost Depletion ($5,441,000,000) Not sure, but that sounds like a really fancy accounting depreciation schedule.
• Reduced Government Take from Federal Oil and Gas Leasing ($7,049,000,000) Does this mean they drill on federal lands an we take less then we could?

Alternative Energy
• Credit for Residential Solar Electric, Heating, and Fuel Cell Property ($39,000,000) Hmmm...that's good, not great NBA money, but not Big Energy money
• Alcohol Credit for Fuel Excise Tax ($11,577,000,000) Wow, there it is! That's crazy! Wait, what? Could this be ethanol? If so, that's the worst sh*t out there. Wrecks engines, wrecks the land where it's refined.
• Corn-Based Ethanol ($5,007,000,000) So perhaps two "green subsidies" are for ethanol. Oh and this crap is brought to us by Big Energy trying to look green...

Just give me good diesel, 93 unleaded and 110 leaded please

 

[N_Jay]

There is plenty more to criticize, but I'll stick to your points

Fossil Fuel Subsidies and Tax Relief 2002-2008

• Totaled approximately $72 billion — while subsidies for renewable energy during that time period rang up at $29 billion...and wait until you see what's in the $29B.

If Energy is the goal, it must also be the measure!

• Foreign Tax Credit ($15,300,000,000) because they claim buisness income outside the US

Not sure the source of this one. I think it is general tax issue and not at all specific to the energy industry, added to pump up the total by (dishonest) people who want you to hate conventional energy companies

• Oil and Gas Exploration & Development Expensing ($7,100,000,000) Interesting...so, they need us to pay them to explore and develop?

This is a bribe because someone in congress though the oil companies were not exploring enough and not developing enough "reserves". Left to their own, they would explore and develop economically, but that was not good enough for Congress.

• Oil and Gas Excess Percentage over Cost Depletion ($5,441,000,000) Not sure, but that sounds like a really fancy accounting depreciation schedule.

Allows depreciation of the value of a well to be adjusted down based on anticipated return remaining, instead of just age (like most equipment).
I think it was part of making US well more economically attractive than foreign wells, but I am not sure.

• Reduced Government Take from Federal Oil and Gas Leasing ($7,049,000,000) Does this mean they drill on federal lands an we take less then we could?

This is an incentive to lease declining wells that otherwise would be abandoned. Private land owners can set well lease rates to the market, but the government's one-size-fits-all processes cause problems that have to be "patched". (This is really not a subsidy, since without it the wells would not be leased at all) (Just part of the big lie)

Alternative Energy

• Credit for Residential Solar Electric, Heating, and Fuel Cell Property ($39,000,000) Hmmm...that's good, not great NBA money, but not Big Energy money

Bribing people to buy the unsellable crap you bribed companies to make.

• Alcohol Credit for Fuel Excise Tax ($11,577,000,000) Wow, there it is! That's crazy! Wait, what? Could this be ethanol? If so, that's the worst sh*t out there. Wrecks engines, wrecks the land where it's refined.

Farm states want their cut! Go Congress!

• Corn-Based Ethanol ($5,007,000,000) So perhaps two "green subsidies" are for ethanol. Oh and this crap is brought to us by Big Energy trying to look green...

Oil companies don't want this crap either. A win for the corn and farm lobby!

 

[nickm]

If Energy is the goal, it must also be the measure!

• Foreign Tax Credit ($15,300,000,000) because they claim buisness income outside the US

Wouldn't they simply be taxed on this in the country where the income was incurred? Typical for global corporations to have tax obligations in many different countries...likely at a much higher rate than US corporate tax rates

 

[N_Jay]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_tax_credit

Just a fix for double taxation OF ANY COMPANY doing business overseas.

NOT an energy tax or subsidy at all!

Part of the lie!

 

[nickm]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_tax_credit

Yes...so how is this a subsidy? They've already paid taxes elsewhere on this income/

 

[N_Jay]

Yes...so how is this a subsidy? They've already paid taxes elsewhere on this income/

It is NOT a subsidy.

It is included in the list as part of the BIG LIE told/sold by the lying bastards pushing "Alternative" energy.

If you want to look at subsidies, look at the alternative energy market.

Tesla makes more per car on subsidies than on sales!

Most solar subsidies are flushed away on huge failures, or the false hope of having photovoltaics be practical being anywhere other than calculators and spacecraft.

The entire Ethanol and Bio-Diesel market is full of fraud, price manipulation and crony payoffs.

 

[nickm]

It is NOT a subsidy.

I agree, its just tax laws.

I'm not sure I get the Tesla hype. cool concept, cool car to drive, but let it live and sell on its own merit vs. throwing taxpayer money at it.

Considering Ford sold more F150s between 9am-10am this morning than Tesla's annual production, there's an awful lot of hype about nothing much going on.

Here's a great example of lunacy at its best. Ontario offers a rebate on EVs that meet their specs...of course the Porsche 918 is on that list. I need help understanding this green thinking?
http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/vehicles/electric/electric-vehicle-rebate.shtml

 

[mpm T2 TDI]

Tax relief and subsidies are two heads of the same take-it-out-of-the-taxpayers-pocket coin...

And yes, the tax credit is tax relief...

The foreign tax credit allows U.S. corporations to credit a portion of their foreign income taxes paid abroad against their U.S. income tax liability on this income. The oil and gas industry claims the greatest portion, about 75 percent, of the total foreign tax credit.

100 years ago oil received a lot of subsidies - some of which still exist - as those being ridiculed being offered to alternative energy as useless. Oil and gas will never go away, but someone will figure out how to make the photovoltaic cell and therefore panel much more efficient. Once that happens, prices will plumit and new industries will be created.

 

[N_Jay]

. . . . .The oil and gas industry claims the greatest portion, about 75 percent, of the total foreign tax credit. .

Does not make it a energy subsidy.

The Alt Energy people lie!

. . . but someone will figure out how to make the photovoltaic cell and therefore panel much more efficient.

They can make then darn near 100% efficient and they are still mostly impractical.

You are betting on magic.

 

[nickm]

Tax relief and subsidies are two heads of the same take-it-out-of-the-taxpayers-pocket coin...

And yes, the tax credit is tax relief...

.

would the tax credit not be a two sided? ie: US corp does not pay taxes on income earned abroad (that income has already been taxed in the country it was earned). On the other side of the coin non-US corps earning revenue in the US would be taxed in the US and not in their nation.

 

[mpm T2 TDI]

would the tax credit not be a two sided? ie: US corp does not pay taxes on income earned abroad (that income has already been taxed in the country it was earned). On the other side of the coin non-US corps earning revenue in the US would be taxed in the US and not in their nation.

I think so, but getting out beyond my tax skies on this, but I believe it allows a multinational corp to pick the best tax rate for a percentage of their income.

The gripe I've heard voiced is that this allows these companies to pay less in US taxes.

 

[TJay]

Yeah, that will be cool if the Model X can tow 10,000lbs and still provide a decent range!

 

[N_Jay]

Yeah, that will be cool if the Model X can tow 10,000lbs and still provide a decent range!

I'm starting a pool
On the vertical:
3500 to 4999
5000 to 7499
7500 to 9999
10000 or over

Across the horizontal:
Under 50 miles
50 to 99 miles
100 to 149 miles
150 to 199 miles
200 to 249 miles
250 to 299 miles
300 to 349 miles
350 or over

$10 a square