OK I will bite, what is HHO?

 

In short, it's an asinine idea, with proponents that do not understand the simplest laws of physics. I cannot grasp why people still fail to understand that there is no free energy.

Save your money and your time and blow this one off.

Cheers, John

 

HHO Fuel LLC Home
http://www.hhofuelfacts.com/
http://hho-gas.org/

Interesting ideas. Let us know how it well it works if you do it.

 

This stuff falls into the "Buyer Beware" category. If you think it will work, then buy it.
I am a sceptic about much of this modern "snake oil" remedy stuff, but each to his own.

I can't provide proof unless I try it, and I have no intention of doing so.

Happy to be proved wrong.

 

I am definitely planning on doing it in the near future. I also hang around the HHO Forums - Trying to facilitate the production of HHO for the common folk. - Powered by vBulletin and I came across a member called Smith03Jetta or something like that. He also owns the '05 V6 Touareg and he claims that he's getting a 33% better fuel milage with no other modifications i.e. 02 extenders, EFIE, MAF enchancer etc...I tried getting in touch with him, but no response...
Where do you think would be the best spot to connect the HHO?

 

If you do this, I'd LOVE to hear the results and see the setup. This is the first I've ever heard of such a thing. Interesting.

 

It's a HHOax.
If that really was the answer, factories would not mess with hybrid technology etc but install this great device for next to nothing.

You are buying an expensive plastic bottle with a couple of wires to say it simply.
You can also buy a book about it for DIY.
If you know what affiliate programs are you will find out that high commissions are paid on this to sell these books.
Do not waste your money.

 

nltomba did you ever think that factories are getting incentives NOT to put this stuff in? There's alot of people out there using HHO and with great results. Youtube is full of videos. Look up Stanley Mayer and his water buggy. His buggy run on water alone. Poor guy payed with his life for it.
The biggest problem with HHO today is that it requires greater energy input compared to the energy you get out of it.
When Tomas Edison was looking for ways to improve the light bulb, it took him over hundred tries until he succeeded. Someone asked him whether the light bulb was even possible? His replay: "I just discovered 100 ways of how NOT to build the light bulb". The answer is somewhere out there

 

Look up Stanley Mayer and his water buggy. His buggy run on water alone. Poor guy payed with his life for it.

Damn Oil Company killed him

 

I believe MythBusters ran an episode on some of these "free fuel" fuel-saving devices... Busted!

Can't say specifically about the HHO of course. "Your mileage my vary"

 

Im gonna do this on my reg I thought I would be the first HHO t1 but I guess not lol

 

I'm in school right now for diesel and I learned a lil about this. It can be done with increases of 2-7% in mpg which is enough for me.

HHO on T1

 

Bringing this thread back as Ive experimented with HHO on a 96 VW Transporter 2.4 Diesel using a Boyce designed B3 on demand kit.

With HHO,
highway was 30% better.
City was about 20% better.

This was running the unit at 12 amps max. The only issue with this kit was the lack of adjustability of gas output vs rpm.

To much hho or advance(in a gas engine) can cause mechanical failures but you can hear the marbles rolling easily.

I just bought a system for the 05 Touareg 3.2 that can map rpm vs hho amps.

HHO works by increasing the burn rate of the fuel.. Period! The faster explosion is more complete at the end of the power stroke, transferring more power to the piston.

The challenge of cell design is to use the least power to produce the most hho gas of the most powerful type. However even the most basic hho gas cells can help combustion efficiency, which is why they work.....

Problems occur due to the standard ecu reading the now more efficient burn as lean and enriching fuel trim. However the latest Volo chip has compensated for all the above.

Regards

 

HHO? you mean Brown's Gas?

Give it a try the claim is the free hydrogen helps improve combustion efficiency. I've seen several units on you tube over the years that make HHO on the fly. I can't quite see the reason for doing it... however why not see for yourself?

 

hho, browns gas, is all gas produced by splitting water.
Stanley Meyer was a great man. Poisoned to death by ignorant trolls.

Many spout the myths they have learned through belief. However, without observation the myths are simply retold. The great human dilemma in a nutshell, Belief is Not Truth!! I recommend reading, “Practical Enlightenment” by Jim Humble

Speaking of myth busters. They are paid to do as their controllers wish. Anyone who has actually installed an hho kit from a reputable company has been able to observe the results. They got the results they were told to get.

I will post real results as they come in. These vehicles, 05 T1 3.2 in my case, are incredibly wasteful on fuel. Driving my normal I only get 17L/100. How that is even possible is beyond me. With all the supposed technology going into these vehicles?! There are no codes and I have replaced everything that was in need of it, including timing chains, driveshafts, etc etc.

So why are these so wasteful? VW said, “Well sir, it IS a Touareg!” To which I retorted, “My 1952 Dodge M37 with a 360ci V8 weighing over 3tons got better mileage!!

 

My reading shows that NOx increased as the H2 was increased - that makes it a big no-no in urban areas - same problem that makes diesel the devil.

 

How did you observe Nox emissions?

 

So, do you guys really think that using the alternator to power an electrolyzer to produce oxyhydrogen, then burning the oxyhydrogen in the combustion chamber to produce heat and WATER actually nets energy? As in, you start with water, and end with water + heat?

Or is the claim that you can somehow use this to get a more complete combustion of the diesel fuel by increasing the combustion temperature, and thus increase efficiency that way? Where the energy salvaged by the more efficient combustion is greater than the loss of the alternator, the electrolyzer, and the combustion process.

Option one violates the laws of thermodynamics.

Option two assumes that there's enough waste FUEL in the exhaust gas that increasing the combustion temperature would be reasonable and not damage anything. You can already directly achieve that to some degree through an ECU tune.

Either way, this is quackery, and I don't see an option three.

 

Option 3 You could read my original post, but I will repeat it a little slower.

All Fuel, be it gasoline or diesel, burns at a certain rate.

This rate is to slow for complete combustion to take place during the power stroke.
Adding hho increases the rate of combustion so more power is generated during the above mentioned power stroke.
Faster burn = higher efficiency.

All “hydro“ carbons are burning hydrogen. The rate they burn is largely due to whatever is attached to the hydrogen. Whether its diesel, propane natural gas or cow **** Its hydrogen burning.

It really has nothing to do with the laws of thermodynamics.

Breaking those requires a better generator and a pwm (pulse width modifier) which produces a resonance and makes higher quality gas. Then you dont need any additional fuel besides the hho gas and can run on water alone. They still kill people who do that like Stan Meyer. But it is possible to run an internal combustion engine on water alone. Quite a few inventors have done so.

 

Wow... just... wow.
I really want to avoid turning this into an ad hominem rant, but you make it really hard, so I'm just going to pick a few things you wrote to respond to directly and be done with this nonsense.

“hydro“ carbons

It's just hydrocarbons. You don't need the quotes.

It really has nothing to do with the laws of thermodynamics.

So the Otto Cycle has nothing to do with the fundamental laws on which it's defined? This is asinine.

those requires a better generator

The only "generator" in your system is the alternator of the car. Do you mean the electrolyzer?

pwm (pulse width modifier)

There is no such thing as a "pulse width modifier." I think you mean "Pulse Width Modulation." So are you using a direct current electrolyzer, or a pulsed electrolyzer? Do you understand the difference, or are you just trying to appear smart by using science-y sounding words you heard on some idiotic youtube video?

you dont need any additional fuel besides the hho gas and can run on water alone

How? Please explain the entire cycle for me because unless I'm misunderstanding you, you're describing a perpetual motion machine. You start with water, apply some energy to it (Ein) to get oxyhydrogen (which you insist on calling "HHO" for some reason), then you burn it which gives you the same amount of water you started with and some energy (Eout). By what you're describing Eout must be greater than Ein with no other changes in the system, which I hope you see is impossible. You don't get anything for free, so please explain what you give up to have Eout > Ein.

All that said, once you're rich from the wild success of your "HHO" project, I'd love to see you try and run your treg on a permanent magnet motor. I'm sure the dudes at Steorn could provide some expertise. Though I'm sure big oil and their government cronies will shut the whole thing down before you prove your success. /s

 

Well then all the hho users will just keep going on breaking your laws with reckless abandon then

Why not use your incredible brain to do some experimentation of your own so you too can Observe the results and stop sounding like a lawyer with a physics textbook. I believe animus nocendi does apply, as you have no intention of answering the original posters question.

To the original poster, Thanks for starting this thread. I will definitely get back with some fuel consumption numbers after a few fill ups.

 

It's not free energy, it's accessing potential energy that has been introduced.
Adding more fuel.
The only impediment is the cost of making that energy available.

It's my understanding that it takes a lot of electricity to produce HHO which would be a strain on the cars onboard alternator and battery.
It produces a lot of heat too.

Obviously some systems will be more efficient than others and the only way to improve efficiency is to get out there and use the equipment.

To shed some light on the question of thermodynamics; a nuclear reactor produces a lot more power than it takes to start the reaction.

I'm pretty sure that HHO doesn't effect the rate of burn, that's what they said about LPG injected diesel and it's not true. Any gain with an LPG injected diesel is simply the addition of extra fuel that is cheaper than diesel.

The very expensive high octane petrol actually burns SLOWER to prevent detonation allow the engine to run at a higher compression and more advanced timing which leads to overall better engine efficiency.

Regarding Mythbusters: It's a very rare occasion that I don't find a fault with their scientific methods. I remember the HHO episode but I don't really recall what the fault was if any.

Why don't manufacturers use it?
Easy, it's a cumbersome setup. Manufacturers don't use water injection and we know that does work.

 

It's not free energy, it's accessing potential energy that has been introduced.

That's not what TommyBoyee was claiming. Please re-read his post where he claims this:

you dont need any additional fuel besides the hho gas and can run on water alone

a nuclear reactor produces a lot more power than it takes to start the reaction

This is actually true! But you neglected to mention that it consumes mass through fission to produce that energy (you know... e=mc^2). You don't get anything for free and there's no accounting for the energy gained in this "HHO" system.

 

I recently found a video online where they explode a ballon that has pure hydrogen in it and another with hho. The 100% hydrogen burned slower than the hho because it took time for it to mingle with the atmospheric oxygen. The hho ballon actually flashed like a lightbulb before the ballon even expanded.

Mixed with a fuel like gas or diesel it will speed up the burn rate of the fuel and/or because Im not sure. The hho may light up the fuel with a larger/faster flame front. This is one of the reasons ignition timing is so critical.

In my VW 2.4L 5cyl diesel I was able to find the pre ignition point by simple turning up the amperage on the PWM. I did this by mistake thinking more is better and had some serious clacking as I ran to turn it down again.

The alternator on my van is 120amps and the B3 cell I use takes about 12 amps. So its not a huge load.

Later designed generators and PWMs are more efficient. Also, there are different types of hydrogen made. If you search for ortho hydrogen you will find good info on hho generators that produce 4x more powerful gas than simply putting an anode and cathode in an electrolytic solution.

search for Bob Boyce or Hydrogen Garage. They've been doing this for at least 10 years that I know of.

 

I finally managed to finish the install, recalibrated the Volo16 and went for a spin. Initial Dyno run shows improvement and the mileage is at 14.9L/100. Base was 17.3. The computer is still adapting for another 100km. I will continue to update...

 

 

Stock is 220hp 225Torque

 

How much strain is it putting on the alternator and battery?

 

The max continuous amp draw on the PWM is 20 amps. The highest duty cycle I have mapped was 60% at 6000rpm down to 15% at idle. So 3 to 12 amps