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catalystgod

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
I have been running the forum favorite brake setup from Geoff@Alretta for the last 20K miles. Although I was impressed initially compared to the crappy Pep-Boys brakes the previous owner had put on the vehicle, I am left wanting for more braking power....A LOT MORE.

I understand from research that the OEM Pagids are indeed better, and I am not contesting that. I am wondering if there is something that is better than the OEM pads. Dust and Brake Squeal don't bother me or my wife much. Cost would become an issue only if the price is absolutely outrageous.

I am almost wondering if I should contact my track-pad supplier and have them custom cut a different material for me. Then again, I do not know what material to go for.
 
#2 ·
Yes there are. BIGGER (oem) brake pads and rotors. We of course would be talking major upgrade monies and really for what? (I am just asking the questions, your unstated priorities are what matters.)

I have read reviews that mention the (2012) Touareg stops 60 mph to naught in app 120 ft (4974# vehicle). Toyota Landcruisers (1994 to 1996 are what I have lived with for many years) stops in 125 ft 4900#'s with 335 mm rotors. How much less do you really want or are willing to spring for? So for example, a 2001 Z06 Corvette can do 60 to naught in 109 ft and has GM brake pads ( PBR) and GM rotors 12.8 12.0 in. PBRs brake pads ( oem sourced in Australia) are 40 for the front pr and 30 for the rear pair (sub 3,000 #'s). T TDI rotors are 330 mm fronts/rears= app 13 in.

So I am swagging a 14 in to 14.5 in. rotor and pad combination would provide the extra friction areas for the app 10 ft stopping improvement. I haven't a clue as to the additional engineering needed to effect that change.

As mentioned in the Geoff@Alretta thread, the Porsche Audi VW engineered and designed and specified Brembo and Pagid components for the braking system are adapted from the systems that stop the Ferrarri F430.
 
Discussion starter · #3 ·
I am not exactly sure what you are trying to say. My question is simple. Has anyone used better pads than the OEM Pagids, disregarding noise and dust levels. I have a V10 and I don't think I need bigger rotors or calipers. I am just looking for better than stock stopping power in stock dimensions.

My track Pad supplier can usually cut any brake compound to a certain pad spec. So I would be happy if I gained even 10% compared to stock. On a vehicle this big and heavy, 10% is a LOT!
 
#4 ·
On clean, dry pavement, can you brake hard enough to hit the ABS?

If so the brakes are providing more friction than the tires are capable of handling...

Fancy pads can help with fade from.repeated use, but I don't think that is the issue here.
 
#7 ·
All a higher coefficient of friction will do is make the pressure needed to obtain lockup/ABS activation lower...

If you can lockup/hit ABS, new pads will do nothing for your threshold stopping distances.

Some really sticky tires may overwhelm the factory pads, but I doubt it. Repeated hard use (track days) can overwhelm the factory pads, but on street tires, and street driving (even spirited street driving) there will be no gain.
 
#8 ·
Pagid also make yellow competition pads that some Porker owners use for track days.

The problem with going in this direction is that they need heat in them to work optimally so they aren't, in my view, practical for day to day use otherwise you'll be travelling down the freeway one cold wet day, apply the cold wet brakes, and wonder why the car isn't stopping!
 
#9 ·
I like the GGs so have gone back to Pagid. stopping power, feel and bite are much more important than dust and longevity of the pad to me.
Donot want to be standing on one foot on the brake pedal to halt 2.5 tonnes.
Layers of black brake dust are part of the 'euro' look ;)
 
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#10 ·
I live with the black dust but I love the stopping power of pagids.
 
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#11 ·
catalystgod said:
I am not exactly sure what you are trying to say. My question is simple. Has anyone used better pads than the OEM Pagids, disregarding noise and dust levels. I have a V10 and I don't think I need bigger rotors or calipers. I am just looking for better than stock stopping power in stock dimensions.

My track Pad supplier can usually cut any brake compound to a certain pad spec. So I would be happy if I gained even 10% compared to stock. On a vehicle this big and heavy, 10% is a LOT!
Click to expand...
By default, what you are saying is just the pad compound change will give you 10% better stopping distance (in my example 120 ft x 10% or - 12 ft)= 108 ft. Does your track pad supplier guarantee that? If he does what are the trade off's ?
 
Discussion starter · #12 ·
Track pads are great only for track days as some others have mentioned. I use them all the time on the track car and they are far from ideal to use on the street. Not to mention the way they eat into the rotors given their high metal composition.

I checked the pads for the Cayenne here, and the fronts seem to be the same and the rear seems to match my track car, the Evo X! Are these the OEM spec or do those numbers only represent cut dimensions?
PAGID Racing

As far as the CF discussion is concerned, I beg to differ. It is VERY hard to activate ABS on the Treg with my current setup. It was impossible on the crappy pep-boys setup. I think there is enough tire on the treg to safely use a more aggressive braking compound than what I have now. The question is if the OEM pads are the best there are for the job.

All things said, I do not mind getting the Pagids if they are indeed the best in terms of stopping power. But I have never used them and am just checking to see if there are better options out there for my needs before I take the plunge.

My main reason for this search is that I had to apply a serious panic brake the other day on my way to DC and it took a LOT of pressure to activate the ABS. My ankle still hurts from the excessive pressure I had to put to save the vehicle in front of me. ;) I think I have decent tires, the current pads definitely are not taking advantage of what they offer.
 
#14 ·
And I think the reverse would be true too. The cheaper EE and FF stuff will require higher pedal force, and less brake force reserve. However, it will be hard to tell without a brake force gauge.

I drove a friend's Treg with the LTS pads, and I thought they were mediocre but she couldn't tell the difference. Each to his/her own.

Some track compounds are not street legal, are they not?


Crazyhippy said:
All a higher coefficient of friction will do is make the pressure needed to obtain lockup/ABS activation lower...
Click to expand...
 
#15 ·
Yes, I would think cheaper, lower friction pads mean increased brake force required. That is why most drivers should do well going with either OEM or Euro R90 certified aftermarket brake pads. ;) That is not including some aggressive racing compounds, if they are street legal.

Cheap pad can be a lot more expensive than OEM/R90 if one gets into an accident.


catalystgod said:
As far as the CF discussion is concerned, I beg to differ. It is VERY hard to activate ABS on the Treg with my current setup. It was impossible on the crappy pep-boys setup. I think there is enough tire on the treg to safely use a more aggressive braking compound than what I have now. The question is if the OEM pads are the best there are for the job.

All things said, I do not mind getting the Pagids if they are indeed the best in terms of stopping power. But I have never used them and am just checking to see if there are better options out there for my needs before I take the plunge.

My main reason for this search is that I had to apply a serious panic brake the other day on my way to DC and it took a LOT of pressure to activate the ABS. My ankle still hurts from the excessive pressure I had to put to save the vehicle in front of me. ;) I think I have decent tires, the current pads definitely are not taking advantage of what they offer.
Click to expand...
 
Discussion starter · #16 ·
been looking for R90 certified pads and it has not been easy. Any pointers?

Anyone tried Carbotech 1521 or even any of the XP series?

I am looking at Performance Friction and raybestos as well.
 
#17 ·
Besides VW/Brembo made by Pagid, aftermarket Pagid is R90 certified. EBC Ultimax and Ferodo are R90 certified. You just have to check their websites, and they will not shy in telling you about R90 certification. I am not sure about EBC Yellow however, some are but some are not as the website mentioned.

Ferodo UK - the first name in brake pads, brake linings, brake discs and other friction components for car, truck, bus, motorcycle and motor sport use.

Look at what lower friction coefficient does with Competitor A and B here. Do people think cheap pads really are cheap? I say they are more expensive than R90 quality pads.

Ferodo UK - the first name in brake pads, brake linings, brake discs and other friction components for car, truck, bus, motorcycle and motor sport use.

I do not think Carbotech, Performance Friction, Raybestos, Wagner and other American brands on sale in the US meet European standards. One member mentioned that there are no legal standards to meet for the US domestic aftermarket; therefore he buys only OEM pads.

catalystgod said:
been looking for R90 certified pads and it has not been easy. Any pointers?

Anyone tried Carbotech 1521 or even any of the XP series?

I am looking at Performance Friction and raybestos as well.
Click to expand...
 
#18 ·
Ferodo is what I swore by and used for both street and track on my ex BMW.

Oddly never considered the possibility they might have something for the Touareg. I really loved those pads, as did others who were brave enough to venture out and experiment at the time .



 
#19 ·
Actually, US regs beat to their own drum. European specs are a production of the Euroean union regulatory machine, but quality is quality. Wagner/Federal Mogul is an OE manufacturer, Raybestos is a major NASCAR supplier for racing products. Read the Raybestos.com website to learn more about their affiliations with NASCAR. Their clients' team victories using Raybestos friction products are highlighted.

I took delivery on a set of rear parking brake shoes from Wagner recently. These shoes also fit various Mercedes SUV. Those trucks are made in the USA. Right on the shoe was the E1-90 markings with the word Federal Mogul nearby. It's the first time I've ever seen this designator on a USA made friction product.

On another note, I now have R50 brake pads in stock from Wagner. These are made in the Czech Republic according to the carton. They appear to be a dust producer all right. But the pricing is much better than OE, I'll wager. R50 rotors are also available in the US, even though the trucks aren't.

For those that are complaining about force transmission, do not forget that two year old brake fluid is fully saturated with water, 8%, and will have a higher compressibility factor and softness compared to new fluid. This is an important service to be sure. When I had the brake fluid flush on my own V6, without any other brake work, I noticed the difference in pedal feel immediately. You will too...
 
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catalystgod
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