It looks like this is one occasion when a load of balls actually makes sense!

 

Hi. I have been reading more and more about ball seat radius and there is a lot of conflicting information.
For example most of the forums seem to say that Cayenne, Q7 and Touareg wheels use a ball seat radius 14mm (R14 or 28mm diameter).
How ever there was one thread that said they are actually R15 (30mm diameter) ball seat.

When I ordered my Braid wheels they asked what seat I wanted and I said to suit VW Touareg 2007 V6 TDi.
They told me it was and R16. But when they arrived they had the correct R15 ball seat to match my lug bolts. So obviously even manufacturers are getting confused here.

I got fed up with guessing and since there is no good way to accurately measure the difference of the ball seat diameter of a wheel in a garage I ordered some stainless steel balls in size diameters: 26mm, 28mm, 30mm, 32mm. This allows me to accurately determine R13, R14, R15, R16 ball seat radius' on wheels.

Now of course because the radius in the wheel is drilled through for a bolt, the balls too small will sit at the bottom essentially in the bolt hole, not on the ball radius.
The balls too large will sit on the top edge, not touching the bottom or ball radius on the sides.

To determine the correct size then we must start at the smallest. The sizes too small will sit in the bolt hole and when pressed to the side they will rock out of the bolt hole and onto the ball radius (side). The ball will only move a fraction of a millimeter but it is noticeable by feel and site.
When we move up to the correct size the ball will no longer rock out of the bolt hole as it will be fully supported by the whole ball radius.
The balls too large are harder to determine which is why we start from small to large. But if a larger sized ball is placed in the wheel seat it will sit on the top edge of the radius, and takes noticeably less force to push it out of the ball radius. It does not stick in there and has a different initial feel on movement.

So on a 2007 V6TDi with OEM wheel 17x7.5 the correct size is 14x1.5 R15

If anybody has measurements for other year models or wheels that conflict with this please post up your experience.
Many websites seem to incorrectly list R14 wheel nuts and bolts as fitting the Touareg. Which is why I ask if maybe there is a difference in year models or wheels.

Here is the balls 28mm and 30mm and my Braid wheels
View attachment 253542
View attachment 253541

Here is the OEM wheel I am talking about. I measured on this and had the same as my Braid wheels R15.
View attachment 253540

What's odd is they told you it was a R16 ball seat when you spoke with them but sent you R15 anyway, which you say is correct. Maybe they double checked before sending them out and realized their mistake.
With that said.... how do the Braid wheels look on your Treg?

 

Yes it definitely seems strange. Also the only R16 spherical wheel seat I can find is for possibly a Ford truck of some kind with 16x1.5 thread wheel stud.
I wonder if anybody has the tools or knowledge to actually measure a proper radius when there is only 1/3 or so of the ball available such as with the wheel bolts and wheel seat?

I was also looking for a gauge of some kind to measure ball radius' for wheel bolts and nuts. I did find some but they were several hundred dollars as it looks like you need a thick piece of metal with appropriately sized ball holes CNC machined into it. You would also need to drill a through hole into the pieces I saw if you wanted to use it for wheel bolts rather than just the nuts aswell.

Sorry I do not have any pictures of the Braid wheels mounted yet as I have only test fitted them. I am waiting to finally finish off all the rest of my suspension bushes and get a proper wheel alignment before I put on the new tires. Hopefully next weekend I get around to it.
Eurowise sells the 18x8 version of my same wheel on their website. So there are plenty of pictures of similar setups on the web though. Although most have much larger 32"+ tires. Where as my 245/70R17 are only 30.5"x9.5".

P.S. It would be great if some other people could confirm or conflict what I have measured.

 

Well a small update along with a picture of the wheels as requested.

Braid was contacted to ask if I can change the wheel hole insert to a more common size as I want to convert to studs and nuts. They said they will send me some R15 wheel nuts so I can convert to studs.
It also appears that their engineering designs show they built the wheel with R15 wheel hole inserts and so the previous mention of R16 was a typo or mistake.

By the fact that a wheel manufacturer and my own testing/measuring with balls has concluded the ball seat is R15. I think we can definitely say that atleast THESE OEM VW wheels and wheel bolts are R15 ball seat. Not R14 like has been said in many other threads/forums.

It would be interesting to measure other VW wheels to see if they used a mixture of R14 and R15 depending on specific wheel. It would also be interesting to measure some Cayenne wheels to see if they use R15 or just the normal Porsche R14.
Because it seems like a lot of people are converting to studs and nuts, or wheel bolts with R14 ball seats, when they possibly should be using R15.
I suspect that a lot of companies selling these wheel bolts and nuts that list them as being compatible are unaware as well.

The difference is miniscule and judging from my testing with the stainless steel balls I think a R14 wheel bolt would 'feel' like it fits properly in a R15 wheel hole.

Pretty terrible picture.

 

What if VW did use M14 and M15 ball seat wheels but only supplied M14 ball seat studs. Would this cause the steering wheel shake that people find seems to happen more often with certain wheels?
I could be totally wrong and I'm not saying anything I just wrote is true and this is the cause of the SWS, just that your mention of different ball seat sizes possibly being used made me wonder.

 

New2Tregs. I doubt they would use an incorrect wheel bolt for a different wheel. If they wanted to use a 14mm radius wheel bolt they would have just specced the wheel with a 14mm radius wheel seat.

Tiliqua. Thank you very much. I searched online and was so close to finding the Radius Gauge tool. But instead only found relatively expensive radius gauge blocks etc.
Even a couple of actual mechanic friends didn't know a good way to measure them. I guess radius gauges are more in the field of machinists and engineers.

I have ordered a Mitutoyo Radius Gauge 7.5mm - 15mm range. So that should get me all of the R12, R13, R14, R15 that seem to be popular on European cars.
Mitutoyo 186-106 $69 (Aud) from Just Tools.
When I receive the tool I will measure the VW wheel bolt for confirmation on size.

 

New2Tregs. I doubt they would use an incorrect wheel bolt for a different wheel. If they wanted to use a 14mm radius wheel bolt they would have just specced the wheel with a 14mm radius wheel seat.

I doubt it as well.
My post was more hyperbole than fact, I was just wondering.

 

OEM wheel bolts are listed as being M14 x 1.5 x 27mm according to VW tech docs.
Part number - WHT 002 529
Spanner size - 19
Length - 66mm
Thread length - 30mm
Screw length below head - 34mm
Ball seat

 

They don't give the ball seat dimension though, or did you just not put it?

 

Well another quick update. I received my Mitutoyo radius gauge set.
I measured my OEM wheel bolt as having R14 ball radius. So I decided to take my vehicle to a machinist. I got him to measure both the Braid wheel and the OEM wheel bolt.
He agreed the Braid wheel (which I measured the same as OEM wheel) has a R15 ball seat. But he also measured the OEM wheel bolt as being R14 ball radius. He used both my new radius gauge and a gauge of his own.

The OEM wheel bolts fit into the wheel's R15 ball radius and have a good contact patch that can be easily seen as a large few mm wide shiny patch.
The stainless balls I used to measure the wheels how ever, the 30mm (R15) fit snug, while the 28mm (R14) was obviously a loose fit.

I'm a little confused now. How ever it does seem that the OEM wheel bolts I have are R14 ball radius.

 

OEM ball seats only come in R12-R14 (across various OEMs)
Anything else will be aftermarket.

 

Reading this made me wonder if I am using the right bolts with my Braid wheels… 😬

I checked my receipts and found that the bolts I ordered are R13

• Thread Size: 14x1.5
• Color: Black
• Seat Type: Ball Seat R13
• Shank/Thread Length: 33 mm.
• Hex Size: 17mm
• Material: 10.9 Metric Grade Cold Forged Steel
• Kit content: 10 pcs per pack

 

If you don't know your wheel specs, knowing what bolts you ordered doesn't clear anything up.
Need to ensure your wheel specs match the bolts and center bore if you expect proper mounting.

 

Yes, you’re right. I checked my emails and when purchasing my wheels eurowise suggested those bolts for them ->Link
But they don’t show the R specs…
I ended up buying those ones from Amazon with same specs and R13 -> Link
I’ll contact Braid and post an update later

 

And that’s what they said

I'm assuming these are Porsche Cayenne wheels, correct? If so we would have specified Porsche style lug nut seats which are R14 as you can see below.

 

I'm not clear. Are they saying your wheels are R14 seats but you've been using R13 bolts? So you've already damaged the wheels?

 

I’ll investigate further and post the results…

I don’t think I damaged them

 

I don’t think I damaged them

Bad news bear over here..... I finally looked at your pics and I don't agree with you.
Green arrow shows the original wheel seat.... red arrow shows the newly created indent from the incorrect bolt seat.

 

Just get the correct bolts for the rims you run. Did you confirm the CB is correct?

 

So I guess Braid is making the VAG wheels with R14.

It hard to find M14x1.5x33mm R14 bolts. Most of them are R13.
Braid have them so I will order from them. The other option I found was from eBay from Germany…

 

Nice catch, I noticed it too and luckily when touching it I can’t feel any deformation or groove, it’s just visual from the actual contact patch.
It’s not right to have r13 bolts to a r14 wheels however I am pretty sure most of the guys are with r13 bolts because r14 are hard to find here…
So far I found only braid usa and some custom titanium bolts company (pricey) that sells them

 

I've asked you about the CB several times.... still no confirmation....
Look closely at the imprint of the smaller bolt seat... you can see it's not concentric to the hole.... make sure you have the correct CB or are using adapters so that your fancy wheels locate correctly.... you may want to retorque the new correct bolts often for the first little while until you can validate that you're still getting sufficient contact patch for proper clamping.

 

I have to measure the cb so I am accurate but I am 99% sure it’s the right one. The wheel lays perfectly and no adjustments are required to install the bolts. Those wheels are made for Touaregs/Cayennes…

 

You can tell the CB is correct because it will be a tight fit when you put the wheel on the hub.

I'm still not convinced that SavageSoot is correct in saying OEM was only R13 and R14.
As I measured and had confirmed that I was using the tools correctly to measure by a machinist. My OEM wheels and my custom ordered Braid wheels both measure to have an R15 ball seat radius.
The OEM wheel bolts measure to have an R14 ball seat radius.

Both my ball bearings and radius measuring tools confirm the wheel measurement.
I would like more people to actually measure their wheels and wheel bolts. As it appears most people are just parrots.

 

Both my ball bearings and radius measuring tools confirm the wheel measurement.

Lastly, trying to accurately measure the seat inside a bore is not the way to do this.
Use actual external radius gauges and measure the convex seat on the OEM wheel bolt... not some mickey mouse approach where you're trying to measure the concave wheel seat.... unless, ofcourse, you've got a cross section across your wheel's mounting point so that you can do it accurately.

 

I’ll get set ot measuring gauges to check my braid wheels…

The company said they should be r14 though…

 

I'm still not convinced that SavageSoot is correct in saying OEM was only R13 and R14.

Perhaps you can show me where I said this? 🧐
If you're going to accuse me of stuff, at least quote the correct information.

As it appears most people are just parrots.

https://partsfinder.bilsteingroup.com/en/article/febi/46655

https://mcgard.com/product/chrome-radius-seat-style-lug-bolt-m14-x-1-5-thread-size-box-of-50-lug-bolts-3/