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T3 TDI adblue pump going bad theory

78K views 147 replies 55 participants last post by  noobytoogy  
#1 ·
I've been looking at a few used T3 2011 Touareg TDi's for sale lately, and with every one I look at, I request to see the service records, complete on all of them.

The 2011, of course is the first year of production for this model in North America, and it's pretty common knowledge that 1st year model VW's have a lot of problematic bugs and programming in them that need updates or replacement.

One of the most frequent failures is the ad blue reduction pump, heating elements, and nozzles. In the beginning, VW replaced the whole pump when it failed. By 2012, they noticed that a lot of the heating elements were the culprits for failure. The Urea needs to be preheated before injection. One of the issues is having a tank run low, or refilling, seems to damage the heating element and cause it to fail, not heating the fluid properly. When the fluid is not heated enough, and the SCR system continues to run, from you driving it with the Check Engine Light on, you end up destroying the nozzle valve also, with clogged up corrosive crystal urea particles destroying the nozzles.

Nozzle lists currently at a dealership I callled with P/N 3C0-131-113-C @ $266.40.

Replacement heater element is P/N 7P6-198-970 @ $335.66.

My point is that maybe pouring all that DEF in there with a rush of fluid is damaging the heating element, many seem to fail right after a refill, so use the proper bottles and tools to refill your Adblu tanks.

Another is that running your tank low may cause the heating element to overheat and burn up or short out the electrical element inside. So keep your DEF tanks full and topped off, not empty.

I was quoted about $1500 in parts and labor to R&R this stuff. Don't know how accurate that figure is, but TDI owners need to be smart about owning and maintaining their diesels.

My other thought is that VW's vendors are making cheap, failure prone parts that have a short MTBF.

All of this is theory... one thing I think will be for certain, this is a failure prone part, and we need to learn the VCDS codes and symptoms to fix and resolve the problems... which is where knowledgeable posters here that have had the failures should post up all VCDS codes from their invoices, and all the parts off of their parts Bill OF Material to fix these under warranty, to establish a knowledge base, instead of it just being theory. These are new systems, we all need to learn together.
 
#4 ·
A 2011 with 37000 miles on it that went into service in Sept of 2010 is out of warranty period, by mileage alone, or time, by Sept 2013. After that, Vw will make sure it's on your nickle.

Reminder, I am looking at used 2011's. Not much if any warranty is left on the Ad Blue systems.

BTW, there have been like failures on 2012's also, time will tell as the mileage gets up there. I have seen some used 2011's for sale with huge mileage, 60 to 90k miles, and I wonder if they logged all those miles on the freeways and interstates, where the motor and SCR NOX system do almost all passive regenerations, due to the high exhaust temps that allow the SCR system to not have to use the corrosive urea that frequently. I went through about 3 gallons of Ad Blue in 11,000 miles, myself, and did an extensively high amount of freeway miles in those 11k miles. Probably in excess of 90%.
 
#7 ·
I just find it odd that a lot had these issues and I didn't. It's almost like they had a bad batch of heating elements. Mind you I've always kept mine topped off as well. I never had the light come on even once.
Me neither with Adblue issues...usually as soon as the low warning light went off, a trip to the local auto parts store for 5 gallons rectified the situation.
 
#5 ·
Is there a difference in design of the MY11+ compared to the MY 8 thru 10?........Mechanicaly I don't understand why so many problems with the MY11+ if all is the same. I thought those with MY11+ who did have problems just had a software update that cured their ills.

It would be nice to know what part(s) are first to fail on the AdBlue system
 
#6 ·
2009 and 10 got a 4.5 galllon ad blu tank, in 2011 Vw went to a 5.5 galllon ad blu tank. different fuel pump arrangements also on 2011 on, one versus 2 in the 2009/10 version.
 
#9 ·
AdBlue Pump failed at 1100 miles. Got new pump. At 27k now. No issues at all. I have a 2012.


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#11 ·
When you get a chance, could you look at your invoice and post up the codes shown, the technicians readings, the technicians course of action and the part numbers and part descriptions? Maybe take a picture of the work order/bill and host it and post a link to it here? It would be helpful to all of us on this.
 
#16 ·
fincher, hard to ascertain in your case, since the failure happened so soon after getting your Touareg, almost wonder if dealership did not do a pre inspection and top off your ad blue tank... not sure if yours is common or a statistical anomaly, that was just plain bad from the factory. They gave you the whole pump assy, not a heating element, perhaps a bad pump motor.
 
#17 ·
My tank was full. There were several of us here who bought new and within weeks, the pump failed. Lots of posts and rants during that timeframe...most related to the delay in getting the pump. I don't think there is anything else to it.

I was lucky in that my dealer got the new, updated pump pronto. There's a reason for that but will stop short on explaining why.

Since then, I did get the light at around 7800 miles and put in a gallon of AdBlue. Performed reset per manual. At 10k service the AdBlue was topped off. Got software update for AdBlue sometime between 10-20k. I think I added more AdBlue sometime before 20k service don't recall.

Anyway, I think the AdBlue issue is a non-issue now merely based on the lack of noise here on the forum.


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#18 ·
Niner, I think I found what you want:

Image
 
#19 · (Edited)
Niner,
There were quite few of us on the CT with 2012 TDIs who had Ad Blue pumps failed very prematurely. We have guessed and almost agreed that there were more than one model of Ad Blue pumps in circulation in 2012. My personal theory is that either too new firmware (FW) was downloaded for the older pumps control or, vice versa, the old FW was downloaded for newer generation’s pumps. In either case wrong FW was overworking pump and destroying it very quickly – just like running engine at very high RPMs will ruin it prematurely.
What was really happening, however, remains an mistery or an unverified guess…
 
#21 ·
Hello all, ADBLUE ISSUE
New to posting here, Purchased my 2012 TDI Touareg last year New in Riverside California. Had read here on this forum prior to my purchase about the adblue issues regarding firmware and such on earlier production builds. My vehicles build date is 04/12 and was assured by the Dealer that it had all the latest firmware etc related to the Adblue system. CEL on at 437 miles....Dealer stated that the adblue pump failed. warranty invoice shows 561-198-969 Rep. Set. and Urea along with all the steps to R&R the unit. Once it was repaired we would always notice the noise of the pump running for a few seconds after we turned off the engine and were exiting the vehicle. Not sure why it was running, but it was consistent every time we turned off the engine after a trip - made no difference how far we drove first. All was good for the next 9500 miles when we had the 10,000 mile service performed which included the Dealer re-filling the Urea tank. Today, at 11,500 miles , CEL came on. We made several stops during the day and realized that we no longer heard the pump running upon shutting off the engine. I also realized that I could not recall hearing it the past several times driving the vehicle. Once home, I pulled the code and the fault shows "Reductant Pump Control Circuit Low". Will be taking the it in to the Dealer on Tuesday. I'll post what happens. I also welcome any suggested questions to ask of the Service Department. Oh, one point when the pump was replaced at 481 miles, the service writer, who I had asked for details about what the defective pump was being replaced with, told me that the pump part number on the replacement was exactly the same as the defective pump. But, he noted that one odd thing, was that instead of the new pump coming from the "parts distributor" my new pump came "from the factory"....
 
#23 ·
From the sounds of it, you either lost the reductant pump again or the heater that heats the fluid in it. That there is no motor sound pumping the heated fluid back into the main tank sounds like you lost the pump again.

It could also be the electrical connector that went bad on your system, and the nozzle at the exhaust system where it injects.

If you have VCDS, see one of my most recent posts and get a reading of the same number codes that I did and do a log of them, save them, then copy them up here for us to take a look at.


How long are most of your driving trips, in miles?
 
#22 ·
Ask Riverside Vw to top off your Ad Blu completely with two 2.5 gallon ad blue bottles, watch them do it yourself, the spare tire has to be pulled to do it., and reset it with a 30 second turn on of the ignition without starting the engine to reset the Ad blue value level, then turn the ignition off.

REad up in your owners manual so you know how to do it yourself, instead of counting on the stealership to screw things up.
 
#24 · (Edited)
Niner, the DTC is P208C Reductant Pump Control Circuit Low. Found on Control unit $7EB -CAN-ID ECU #1. BY the way my code reader does not provide the added detail that you refer to in your "Surfing" Post.

Typical driving is mostly short 5-10 mile city trips with an occasional 30+ miler from time to time. In fact we had driven approx. 60 miles yesterday, stopped for breakfast, and upon restarting the engine to get going again - that's when the CEL came on.
 
#25 ·
Wish I had time to run a scan with my VCDS on your Touareg today... I'm in the north San Fernando Valley if you can be here before 2pm.

When you own a very expensive Touareg TDI with hybrid audi operating system controls, it's foolish to not invest in VCDS software and Hex CAN USB cable by Ross-Tech for complete and full diagnostic capabilities. Use it two or three times, hand the code to VW, and tell them not to bone you for diagnostics and clearing... at something ridiculous per scan... $130 to clear the codes, and sometimes their fix doesn't fix it and they bill you again to clear the codes.

It may also be a wiring harness, or ground wire issue also... VW has had some problems with them on 2011 and later T3 TDI's. VW is very stingy with copper wire on their harnesses and the length they are built, a few extra CM's would be very helpful at times.

PM me if I can help.
 
#26 ·
Ok, so prior to taking the Touareg into the Dealer today, I did hear the ad blue pump running for a few seconds after shutting the vehicle off after a short trip. Although it is now very quiet, unlike it was just after the pump was originally replaced at 400+ miles. The Dealer checked it out, scanned the Code to find the same one I reported above. The tech reportedly contacted VW and confirmed that the Reductant (adblue) pump in the vehicle is the latest. The code indicated that the pump controller was seeing resistance outside of the programmed range, so it set the code and turned on the CEL. According to the tech, VW instructed him to Flash (reprogram) the controller (ECM) to update the allowable resistance parameters for the reductant pump to the latest spec.

I also asked about the Adblue pumps coverage under the emission control system warranty. He showed me that the Touareg's emission control system warranty includes the Adblue tank and delivery pump (all I asked about) for 7 yrs 70K miles.

Hopefully I'm good to go now.


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#27 ·
Can you get this emissions warranty coverage of 7 years, 70k miles in writing from them? And when you do can you post it here for all to see?

Ok, so prior to taking the Touareg into the Dealer today, I did hear the ad blue pump running for a few seconds after shutting the vehicle off after a short trip. Although it is now very quiet, unlike it was just after the pump was originally replaced at 400+ miles. The Dealer checked it out, scanned the Code to find the same one I reported above. The tech reportedly contacted VW and confirmed that the Reductant (adblue) pump in the vehicle is the latest. The code indicated that the pump controller was seeing resistance outside of the programmed range, so it set the code and turned on the CEL. According to the tech, VW instructed him to Flash (reprogram) the controller (ECM) to update the allowable resistance parameters for the reductant pump to the latest spec.

I also asked about the Adblue pumps coverage under the emission control system warranty. He showed me that the Touareg's emission control system warranty includes the Adblue tank and delivery pump (all I asked about) for 7 yrs 70K miles.

Hopefully I'm good to go now.


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#29 ·
Intermittent MIL

2010 T2 TDI with 54K miles, MIL went on approx. 500 miles back while pulling trailer up to Waterton, AB. Made side trip to dealer in Lethbridge, but MIL went out on the way. Stayed out while pulling trailer back to Montana, about 250 miles. Back on a few days later. Took it to dealer for oil change and diag indicated "Reductant pressure too low". Dealer said something about an ECU update recall that was needed and they wanted to check pump output. Had to have vehicle for a few days to put trailer in storage, so will return to dealer tomorrow for ECU update and repair, wish me luck?!
 
#30 ·
AdBlu problem again

2011 Touareg TDI. Third time AdBlu comes on begging for the precious liquid, even though the tank is full.

First 2 times, the dealer came up with 2 different diagnostics and their only common feature was: Very expensive.
Today, I'm on my way from Montreal to Florida when the adblu comes on. I stop, top off the tank and it still wants AdBlu. Called 2 VW dealers in Watertown and Syracuse, No one could help for at least one day, so I had to drive back home and leave again tomorrow morning, this time with my Mercedes 350CLK convertible that does not crap out like the TDI. I am not happy.

Just spoke to someone presumably knowledgeable who says this Add Ad Blu thing is just a computer problem that the deler can fix by re-programming the computer and then charge youi $800.00 pretending they replaced some off the wall component.

Anyone have any comments about the Add AdBlu warning being only a programming issue? :mad:
 
#31 ·
Had the AdBlue problem right after I purchased my 11 Touareg in Feb. It had 58K miles and no problems until I drove it home then Engine light came on. They ran the flow tests and pressure test on the system and it wasn't pushing enough so VW ended up replacing most of the system, then thought it was fix until I drove it home. That return trip the light came on again, so I had to take it back. They then replaced some sensor and VW wanted them to put miles on it to make sure it wouldn't trigger again. Well they fixed it - So far so good.
I did hear that there was a TSB that reprogrammed the Adblue to change settings but they didn't do that with me.
 
#32 ·
I just had a engine malfunction light on my 2011 Tdi with 29K miles. The dealer tested, found fault P202A, and replaced the tank heater assembly:
FOR P202A, REDUCTANT TANK HEATER CONTROL OPEN CIRCUIT, CHECK ED SOFTWARE LEVEL, SOFTWARE UP TO DATE AT THIS TIME, SOFTWAR E LEVEL IS AT VERSION 05, OPENED VTA, INSTRUCTED TO FOLLOW DIAGNOSTIC STEPS FOR REDUCING AGENT TANK HEATER, CHECKED OHM VALUE BETWEEN T5 CONNECTOR AT J891 TERMINAL 4 AND CONNECTOR T14 AT TERMINAL 8, SPECIFIED VALUE IS 4 OHMS, ACTUAL VALUE IS OPEN CIRCUIT, REMOVED AND REPLACED IN TANK HEATER ASSEMBLY AS PER ELSA WEB, REMOVED REAR OF EXHAUST AND MUFFLER AS WELL AS HEATSHIELD FOR ACCESS, REINSTALLED ALL REMOVED PARTS AND TESTED""
7P6-198-970 REP KIT WARRANTY 3C0-973-714 HOUSING
 
#34 ·
MIL on again at 62K miles with error code P20E8 which is reductant pressure to low. This is exact same scenario as last October at 54K miles. That one cost me $460.00 to replace module 561-198-969 which I believe is a repair kit for the Adblue pump. Any how that $460 was for labor and 25% of the module cost. I have never let the Adblue tank run low, never seen a low Adblue warning and always used the VW Adblue solution. Anyone else out there with multiple reductant pump failures?