With modern transmissions, the regulations need to clarify whether electronic torque vectoring is acceptable as an alternative to mechanically locking diff.

 

I did finally find a NPS website where they define AWD and high clearance.

What is the difference between a 4x4 and All Wheel Drive (AWD) vehicle?

True 4x4 vehicles have a 'transfer case' in the drivetrain that puts full engine power to the front wheels. All Wheel Drive, common on vehicles like crossover SUVs, relies on a 'differential' to send variable power to each wheel. AWD is good on level roadbeds in low traction conditions like snow. It is not designed to fully power the front tires in off-pavement rugged situations. For example, if the road goes up a steep hill and there is a lot of loose rock in the road, fully powered front wheels are needed to rotate strongly and pull the vehicle up the slope. AWD cannot do that very well and may fail.

Clearance Defined
High Clearance: Any factory stock full or mid-size 4x4 pickup or SUV. Running boards, step bars, and plastic bumpers can get ripped off when going over rough sections. Moderate-clearance crossover vehicles as well as some station wagons designed for off-pavement used would be considered Medium Clearance and can travel many Preserve roads so long as they are equipped with off-pavement tires.

link- click me

 

I did finally find a NPS website where they define AWD and high clearance.

Awesome, thanks for posting that. So one could argue that any system capable of transferring 100% of engine torque to the front or rear would count as 4WD. So that actually includes a large percentage of modern "AWD" cars, which can fully lock the center on demand.

It seems like the vehicle in question here- the Subaru Crosstrek uses a viscous fluid clutch, which can't transfer 100% of torque, so would not meet this requirement. I think one could argue that the 4Motion system in the T3 might not qualify either.

My fiancee has a CVT Nissan Rogue, which isn't really an offroad vehicle at all, but interestingly actually has a center diff lock button on the dash, so I suppose it would count- as would older Subarus that did not have AWD but part time 4WD.

Overall, I don't think this would hold up in court if there were any real fines- as there doesn't seem to be a formal legal definition of 4WD that clearly differentiates it from AWD.

 

Realistically, if you had a T3 with good all terrain tires, and aren't doing anything stupid or getting stuck, I don't think you'd have an issue. I'd insist it's 4WD and let the burden of proof be on them to prove its not.

IF they really want to gatekeep 4WD systems, they need to be more specific in their rules: they could specify a minimum ground clearance, require "all terrains," and require a true center diff lock and/or low range. Otherwise there is no obvious technical difference between AWD and 4WD, if the AWD can use electronic systems to effectively transfer the torque.

When you drive up to the Mauna Kea Summit in Hawaii, they have an inspection gate to confirm your vehicle is appropriate, and I believe they require you to have low range and a locking center diff. I've been up there in a Honda CRV and didn't attempt to get past the inspection gate.

 

I’m thinking they mean most cars and crappy suvs that have AWD with a basic axle torque split. Touaregs all have proper centre diffs, and T1/2 have locking two speed centre diffs.

I’d absolutely fight this if I ever got ganked.

 

I’m thinking they mean most cars and crappy suvs that have AWD with a basic axle torque split. Touaregs all have proper centre diffs, and T1/2 have locking two speed centre diffs.

I know your T3 qualifies, but my understanding is the regular 4Motion system in Touaregs is a torsen diff like "Audi Quattro" and is not capable of locking. How do they actually perform in, e.g. a situation where only one wheel has traction? Will it climb a steep rocky uphill grade with only two wheels on the ground at a time if one of those wheels is also on something slick like sand?

My understanding is they need some torque on the low traction wheel to still transfer torque to the high traction wheel- but I Imagine EDL is able to provide that torque with the brakes.

 

I got asked that question here in Australia, the ranger quite cynically had ruled out the Touareg as an awd softroader( I was driving my T1 V10 with rdl), I eagerly showed him how it could be raised more than the land cruiser at a flick of a switch and engage low range, centre and rear diff locks.
He swallowed his ego and let me thorough...
Unsure if I can be in the same position in the CR, even though it's quite capable with disconnecting sway bars etc in off-road mode

 

I’d absolutely fight this if I ever got ganked.

100% thumbs upped your comment for the throwback use of the phrase "ganked."

I know your T3 qualifies, but my understanding is the regular 4Motion system in Touaregs is a torsen diff like "Audi Quattro" and is not capable of locking. How do they actually perform in, e.g. a situation where only one wheel has traction? Will it climb a steep rocky uphill grade with only two wheels on the ground at a time if one of those wheels is also on something slick like sand?

My understanding is they need some torque on the low traction wheel to still transfer torque to the high traction wheel- but I Imagine EDL is able to provide that torque with the brakes.

Sorry, but many early quattro drivetrains had front and centre vacuum operated locking differentials that were slowly phased out. Initially revised as locking centre only (such as in the 80/90 and C4 models), before being dropped entirely around the time of the entire brand refresh coinciding with the release of the B5 in 1997.

 

Sorry, but many early quattro drivetrains had front and centre vacuum operated locking differentials that were slowly phased out. Initially revised as locking centre only (such as in the 80/90 and C4 models), before being dropped entirely around the time of the entire brand refresh coinciding with the release of the B5 in 1997.

Hence me specifying that I’m talking about torsen and putting Quattro in quotes, because “Quattro” is a just a marketing term that has been applied to a huge number of different systems.

 

Here's a wild notion.

How about wasting fewer public resources drafting and enforcing specious regulations, and more real world consequences for folks who eff around and find out?

Go up a trail you shouldn't have and need an expensive off-road recovery? You pay the piper and learn from your mistakes... then ostensibly do better next time.

 

Agree 100% but I wonder if it's more about protecting the environment/surroundings should a non capable vehicle fafo and winds up leaking chemicals into the ecosystem when they fail.

 

I'm not a super fan of TFL, but this video from today has some good insightes as well:

 

Awesome video. They cover a lot of important points.

 

Tell NPS to search 'touareg off road' on YouTube. There's hundreds of off road clips. If they still don't get it, do a runner and see if they can catch you up. Touaregs are more than capable off road so teach them a lesson.

Obviously joking....

 

I wonder why every real Off-road club in my state will not invite Subaru or any other AWD on demand cute UTE to join trail runs? One of said clubs was skeptical of my Egg, but after I complete a moderate trail run with Jeeps and Tacos wearing 35+ tires, they changed their mind...
Aside politicizing off-road stance, I vote to let ignorant imbeciles get into deepest troubles off-road if they elect to do so in a less than equipped/capable vehicle. And no taxpayer - via park ranger enforcement - should be liable to get them out of their predicament.

 

Weren't you racing a Subie on the trails a while back?

 

Why does everyone want to take away Matt's Offroad Recovery biz?

 

He'll survive.

 

Most (all?) of the softroaders (learned a new derogatory term today) don't have a center diff as they are FWD with a transfer case built into the FWD transmission to drive a prop shaft to the rear diff that locks with an electrically controlled viscous clutch. They are AWD (4WD if we must) when the lock button is pressed and they are under a certain speed, usually 20 mph for the two I am associated with - Nissan Rogue (daughter) and Hyundai Santa Fe (wife, and her previous Kia Sportage). It is a true locked front/rear system up to that speed, as I have tested them in ice and snow.

Like most of you, I would argue to the death that the T1, and for sure T2's, are 4WD capable since we have a locking center diff.

 

They are AWD (4WD if we must) when the lock button is pressed and they are under a certain speed, usually 20 mph for the two I am associated with - Nissan Rogue (daughter) and Hyundai Santa Fe (wife, and her previous Kia Sportage).

I would argue those vehicles like the Rogue and Santa Fe are fairly unique and are true 4WD, since the center locks, just like engaging an old school mechanical transfer case. Most AWD vehicles including the T3 have a center clutch that cannot be fully locked, and typically reacts very slowly to slipping. The speed limit in 4WD is a technicality - probably a software thing that can be deleted, however generally no 4WD system is designed for high speed use. Are you really going to go over 20mph in a Nissan Rogue over terrain where regular AWD is insufficient and you need to lock the center?

 

I agree that a locking centre diff is better than a torsen centre diff in isolation but the Torsen was used because the electronic traction control system makes the difference insignificant. Plus I would also never go on a track that puts wheels in the air in any significant way in a standard treg with its underbody vulnerabilities.

My 1999 Landcruiser has a clutch LSD rear diff but a locking rear diff would be better given its lack of electronic traction control. The greater articulation of the beam front and rear axles do keep the wheels on the ground better that a Treg also.

I guess my thoughts are that its a very complex set of factors that determine a cars suitability for a particular track and the national parks has a difficult challenge if it wants to truely govern which cars can go on which tracks without banning many cars suitable for many tracks.

 

I guess my thoughts are that its a very complex set of factors that determine a cars suitability for a particular track and the national parks has a difficult challenge if it wants to truely govern which cars can go on which tracks without banning many cars suitable for many tracks.

I absolutely agree- that was my point in mentioning the T3 4motion isn't "4WD" yet we know it's pretty good offroad, and members on here have done some really challenging trails in them. As I mentioned earlier in this thread- there are 2WD vehicles like the Toyota Prerunner that are more capable offroad than a lot of stock 4x4s, and tires and driver skill are also more important than the vehicle itself.

I have a lift and steel skid plates on my T2 now, but before that I did plenty of trails that had 2 wheels in the air for extended parts of the trail, and always made it through and never damaged anything. Part of that is because I went very very slow- which I think the low range and center diff lock make easier, and a rear locker would have helped there also. I also usually have someone outside spotting difficult obstacles.

 

I'm guessing Broncos are allowed... just sayin

 

needs better traction control or locking diffs I think

 

Nah... just a better driver... you can see he panicked and hit the brakes just as he was about to send it and peak the climb.... amateur

 

No Tesla trucks either.

 

I actually got a ticket from a ranger on the Medano primitive road at great sand dunes. I tried to argue I have 4WD but he wouldn't listen. I took it to court and it was dismissed. I have a 2010 with low range and locking cent diff.

 

Wow you have almost the exact same vehicle setup as mine. I've never had an issue with officials, but it is amazing how much "warnings" and "friendly advice" (to leave) I get from other people out on trails- the exact same reactions I'd expect if I were out there in a lowered FWD sedan or something.

"Wow you made it out here in that?!!? You should call VW and have them put you in an ad!" Me: "This is a regular gravel road... I think that is an Oldsmobile Cutlass parked over there."