@ToolmanJohn .... looks like you could also play along if you wanted to

 

Interesting comments.
In my view, you only inject fuel if you're trying to use it for something.... so as previously stated, I can see dumping loads of it initially to create heat\exhaust flow for getting the snail moving.... but once you're spooled, you only need what you can burn (aka extract power from)..... anything more is just a waste and additional heat which isn't useful for anything that I can think of.

Stage of tune is also irrelevant.
If you don't have oxygen (for whatever reason... clogged up filter, small turbo, elevation, high IATs, etc), you don't need more fuel.

 

Top end I'll bite way too rich just out of breathe. Middle rpm disagree but it's also subjective. Need more info is this a stage 1 or 2(I assume a stage2). Stage 1 may have less fuel across the rpm than a stage 2 would need more data. Are egt's elevated yes but that is a given due to increased fuel demand, larger turbo or larger intake would that be an issue maybe not. At the end of the day if you aren't tuning yourself or doing multiple revisions you are at their mercy.

 

I don't know if there's power gains to be had on the dyno, but I'm betting that leaning it out in about 75% of the rpm band would at the very minimum decrease consumption and EGTeeezz
I'm also guessing that if that vehicle was to do a long hwy climb or decent tow on any grade which would be longer than a 15-20sec pull, it would hit the EGT limiter and power would be derated. I'd also expect some high water temps as a side effect.

Bottom line... She's too fat IMO

 

Maybe not spool at that point for all we know fuel is pulling its just on a more gradual ramp on the pull. For all we know airflow may be tapped and it's commanding a set fuel trim but if the air isn't keeping up(hence turbo sizing). It's just inefficient. Realistically you could trim fuel all over the rpm band but this is where multiple revisions play into it, and driving style/use.

Do you know what factory lambda is at WOT?

 

Maybe not spool at that point for all we know fuel is pulling its just on a more gradual ramp on the pull. For all we know airflow may be tapped and it's commanding a set fuel trim but if the air isn't keeping up(hence turbo sizing). It's just inefficient. Realistically you could trim fuel all over the rpm band but this is where multiple revisions play into it, and driving style/use.

Do you know what factory lambda is at WOT?

So from factory in the upper rpm your around 1.21 to 1.18 lambda, that tuned vehicle is for sure too rich in the upper rpm, I'll lean into its tapped for air, out of turbo whatever the case. Needs to be leaned out for sure . Just from a safety perspective.

In the meat of the power band I don't see too much of an issue factory is between 18:1 and 17:1 based on lambda, that vehicle hovers around 16:1 which is probably there for the power increase.

You are correct. It is widely accepted that the stock turbo is out of breath with any form of aftermarket tuning in these

 

Strongly disagree, but we only have a AFR graph to look at and are missing all that other important data, so can't really tell much..... but according to Lambda, it's way too fat.....

I will agree that you can use fat lambda initially to generate heat and to spool, but after that, you're just wasting diesel, making smoke and ETGeeeezzzzzz..........

TQ has already peaked at 2.5k so who's still trying to "spool" that that point?
Why are we blaming the turbo now? Why are we dumping fuel if we don't have the necessary air to make use of it?

 

Looking at the graph again I'm not so sure it's too rich, could it using some leaning out yes. Maybe towards the upper rpm you could lean it out a tad more. Looks like mid range rpm is hanging out in the 16s, which isn't terrible maybe not ideal would rather see in 17 to 18 range. Intial fuel dump at the beginning is more than likely for spool. Other factor is possible turbo inefficiency causing it too richen up due to lack of flow at those upper rpm. Look like it doesn't dip below stoich even at the tail end, like I said I'm for sure in for data.

Going to call hp tuners maybe next week they show edc17 for the Amarok being editable, they list a 14 touareg 3.0 with simios8.5 as being tunable but I'm not sure of a gas 3.0 version touareg.

 

Deleted

 

Wanna borrow my eyeglasses? 🤓

 

I should've hidden the time stamps..... everyone is so blinded by the sampling rates that no one is looking at the data.
The dyno AFR is way too rich.... it just makes smoke and heat... no one is seeing that. 😢
I'll have to PM the user to ask if he's deleted, but I'm betting that if he is not, his DPF has accumulated way more ash load than what is "typical" based on whatever mileage he's at right now.

 

I should've hidden the time stamps.....

thats the spirit, hide data

The dyno AFR is way too rich.... it just makes smoke and heat... no one is seeing that. 😢

maybe im so blinded by the sampling rates i dont even see a dyno log? or any data other than the one from your car?

 

Personally I'd want to know where that sensor is located. If it's the typical tailpipe sniffer type I trust them with a grain of salt. My train of thought is I want it closer to the engine.

Interesting looking at that graph like you had stated earlier fuel loads up early in the range. Holds good and leans out in upper rpm. Have to look at the log but opens more questions.

 

There's been a few people mentioning that they have tuning exposure, but no comments yet on the AFR mentioned in #32.....

 

Also true.

 

Everyone is sweating refresh rates but we don't even have any data......

 

I know with some softwares I use(hp tuners, sct, cobb, etc) SAE pids vs mode 22 refresh rates can be way different. VCDS is probably reading the PIDs that are SAE and those generally are a slower refresh rate. I've been tempted lately to see what data will pull when I connect my hptuners up. I know they've been doing alot of vag stuff lately mostly simos 18 based ecms.

But I'm in for data since I'll be in the hunt for a tune in the fall.

 

Deleted

 

If I had some sort of ability to tune\adjust anything, then I would take a different approach.
Right now, I'm just trying to confirm that all canned tunes are crap based on very loose observations.
If this is confirmed, then it will give me a baseline\reason to potentially invest in high end sensors\monitors\gauges (read dedicated, stand-alone, high sample rates, not through OBD/DLC connector) to get actual sensor readouts like the ECU is seeing, instead of the crap values that one can get thought the OBD port.

Since you're into tuning gassers on standalone systems, I'm sure you don't use values off the cluster and or oem OBD port as your inputs.... you more than likely have dedicated sensors that feed directly into the ECU, and you're also connected to the ECU with your laptop, etc.

Look at the small data sample I posted.
Do you need a better sampling rate to tell that I'm riding the stock EGT limit in that 10s block that's captured with a slow sample rate of almost 0.5Hz?
Do you think if you had the same information sampled at 10Hz or whatever, it would reveal a different story?

I repeat again.... I'm not tuning or adjusting anything based on what I may or may not see in these logs..... I'm just looking for something to confirm that I'm not out to lunch (although, it's only another 35min before I will be out to lunch)

 

I'm just trying to confirm that all canned tunes are crap based on very loose observations.

but, you already know that, so why the data?

Look at the small data sample I posted.
Do you need a better sampling rate to tell that I'm riding the stock EGT limit in that 10s block that's captured with a slow sample rate of almost 0.5Hz?
Do you think if you had the same information sampled at 10Hz or whatever, it would reveal a different story?

definitely not, as you youre sitting at a relatively steady state for quite a few of those slow samples - see my earlier suggestions

my worry is youll hear "my tune smokes at initial heavy tip in". someone will take a log of that transient behavior, youll see 1 transient sample mid way through that tip in showing... something... and judge the AFR based on that single sample.
because, see above, youve already decided theyre crap so now you have "data"

anyway, carry on

 

No need to air out your momma's laundry bro!

 

Just busting your chops.... you know I love our chats! (no h0m0)

 

I know you are... Some people show love by being cocksuckers 😘

 

@ValveCoverGasket
As mentioned, I am aware of the limitations that "we" are working with here.... but it's just a "generic" evaluation, not really a tuning attempt. Visual that I'm not sure saying stuff....

 

@ValveCoverGasket
As mentioned, I am aware of the limitations that "we" are working with here.... but it's just a "generic" evaluation, not really a tuning attempt. Visual that I'm not sure saying stuff....
View attachment 257156

this is why again you need to take your extremely slow samples in a tall gear

but it sounds like youre looking to judge PM during transients, and i think that sampling is an order of magnitude too slow to do that. PM and temps during a prolonged steady state WOT pull, maybe...

but im sure lack of samples wont stop anyone from drawing conclusions of course

 

Subbed for interest

 

You already know all this son... you've worked with all the tuners and have explore all the Touareg's limits before jumping on the SQ bandwagon!

Spoiler alert:
I won't like the EGTeeezzz or Lambda values that will come out of these canned tunes!
(so grab a coffee and get ready for some arguments)

 

I'm not tuning anything.
Slow sample rate is still better and faster than no data at all in my view.
I'm trying to confirm my theory that these canned tunes run way too rich and this is why tuners also raise their EGT limits, while also working the turbo too hard..... And making IATs undesirable.

To get to a tuning point, we'd need much better logging equipment and even sensors.

As far as sampling rate ability of VCDS, I've read the specs somewhere, but they were nothing worth remembering.

Baby steps.

 

Deleted

 

VCDS is a very capable tool for what it is and what it costs.
This isn't F1 Telemetry, so I'm not worried about sample rates at this time.....
But if you really want to be a trend setter, then you can tweak your sampling rate by using the turbo function and only one MVB at a time..... and even some VCDS setup values I think....

Let's start with basics and if people want to play, we can get to that point where we optimize stuff..... if I'm completely on crack, this poor sampling rate should be sufficient to shut me up.

 

for what its worth, i do quite a bit of remote tuning (on gas cars), and to really see much of anything useful - again im not totally sure what youre after here - you need to be somewhere in the 20-50ms sampling.

i guess seeing that its so slow, ill re-emphasize my prior point about needing to take all your WOT pulls in the tallest gear you have room/comfort for.

This isn't F1 Telemetry, so I'm not worried about sample rates at this time.....

~1hz sampling is like a telegraph so yeah, nowhere in the same century as F1, or even decent standalone from the early 2000s

on my tdi swapped vanagon ive taken some 1-3 channel logs with VCDS but its running an old slow 68pin ecu. my assumption was that the limitation was the protocol on those ancient boxes but i guess maybe its VCDS also after seeing your touareg log.

 

Two more users came to mind.... more tagging
@TheChunknorris (really want your log, because I recall seeing you dyno and it even had AFR reading on it)
@PRY4SNO

 

Two more users came to mind.... more tagging
@TheChunknorris (really want your log, because I recall seeing you dyno and it even had AFR reading on it)
@PRY4SNO

See if I can grab some logs when I'm home on days off. No promises though, four days goes by fast. Interested in seeing what you come up with though, so I'll see if I can.

 

Sample of what I'm interested in

TIME	Loc. IDE00021	Loc. IDE00190	Loc. IDE00191	Loc. IDE00348	Loc. IDE00361	Loc. IDE02229	Loc. IDE04677	Loc. ENG106231
STAMP	Engine RPM	Charge air pressure: specified value	Charge air pressure: actual value	Intake air temperature	Ambient air pressure	Exhaust gas temperature sensor 1	Oxygen sensor 1 bank 1: lambda actual value	Ambient temperature
	/min	hPa	hPa	°C	hPa	°C		°C
492.79​	1754​	1302​	1382​	4​	974​	341.1​	1.375​	-0.5​
494.43​	1844​	1338​	1340​	4​	975​	375.6​	1.424​	-0.5​
496.07​	1953​	1490​	1388​	4​	975​	408.8​	1.315​	-0.5​
497.69​	2041​	1455​	1460​	4​	975​	421.3​	1.383​	-0.5​
499.32​	2385​	1511​	1480​	4​	975​	433.6​	1.011​	-0.5​
500.98​	2647​	2600​	2588​	4​	975​	577​	1.179​	-0.5​
502.67​	3101​	2600​	2598​	5​	975​	688.1​	1.16​	-0.5​
504.34​	3495​	2600​	2579​	6​	975​	762.1​	1.175​	-0.5​
506.03​	3831​	2476​	2460​	8​	975​	800.6​	1.16​	-0.5​
507.66​	4102​	2348​	2302​	11​	974​	816.3​	1.223​	-0.5​
509.3​	3670​	2233​	2229​	13​	974​	807​	1.168​	-0.5​
510.95​	3878​	2430​	2339​	15​	974​	828.1​	1.212​	-0.5​
512.56​	4067​	2348​	2469​	17​	974​	820.1​	1.196​	-0.5​
514.2​	3689​	2271​	2250​	18​	974​	830.6​	1.236​	-0.5​
515.86​	3632​	2495​	2528​	19​	974​	817.5​	1.194​	-0.5​
517.53​	3759​	2467​	2445​	19​	973​	830.6​	1.233​	-0.5​
519.16​	3863​	2417​	2418​	19​	973​	831.9​	1.24​	-0.5​
520.79​	3569​	2370​	2367​	19​	973​	831.9​	3.649​	-0.5​
522.42​	2520​	1159​	2211​	19​	973​	580.1​	32.767​	-0.5​
524.03​	2333​	1089​	1403​	17​	973​	458.2​	32.767​	-0.5​
525.68​	2195​	1082​	1350​	16​	973​	394.2​	32.767​	-0.5​
527.32​	2126​	1078​	1364​	15​	973​	353​	32.767​	-0.5​
528.93​	2064​	1077​	1321​	14​	973​	323.6​	32.767​	-0.5​

 

Sample of what I'm interested in

without knowing exactly what youre after, thats a really slow sample rate. does it pick up a bit when you pull some channels out?

 

Since I tow sometimes....

 

Oh no.... I'm after Lambda now too.... not just the infamous EGTeeeezzz.... you'll love it... so subscribe

 

Deleted