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Brand new 2012 Touareg needs an oil change??

26K views 64 replies 20 participants last post by  RDub7  
#1 ·
I have a 2012 Executive TDI. The car has 5,600 miles on it.

VW recommends coming in for the first maintenance at 10,000 miles........ should I wait until I hit 10k? Or bring the car in at 5,000 miles to get the break-in oil out of the car?

What would you do?

Conrad
 
#2 ·
I've done exactly that - changed oil and filter at 5K miles. My belief is that while synthetic oil is good for 10K miles, filter is not capable to support such distances – especially during break-in time period. My dealer tells me that most VW, Audi and BMW owners do the same. There was an extensive discussion in a couple of threads a month or so ago. Some folks were bringing bunch of scientific data from different resources and some were showing results of their vehicle oil’s lab tests. I’ve gathered their conclusion was that 10K miles service interval works fine, but I did my 5K service already and I don’t think this was a waste doing so after break-in period.
 
#4 ·
Interesting, my local VW dealer, that we bought our 2012 TDI from, said, and wrote in the service log, to bring the treg in for it's first oil change at 8000km or 6 months (5000mi). This dealer has a great local reputation and an "A" Better Business Bureau rating.
 
#5 ·
No specific interval/s will change their local reputation and "A" BBB ratings.

Even 10,000 miles (16,000 kms) is complete over kill.

The stated reasons and requirements are to not run possibly afoul of engine warranty claims IF in the REMOTE case they are ever invoked. The second reason is that VW Corporate knows what the wear rates are with 10,000 miles OCI's. In effect, those are statistical controls they have SAY over.

Indeed oil can not be called VW507 specifications, if it does not pass a 30,000 miles (50,000 kms) oil change interval. Indeed the specification has been in effect since 2004. But I fear that is TMI. I will stop now.
 
#6 ·
IMHO, I believe we were talking about first oil changes from new, which is always a critical maintenance procedure.
I do fully back my dealership on being conservative on this one service interval (based on my 30+ years experience dealing with tribology, as an STCW certified marine engineer (1st class) ).
 
#7 ·
Agree. One can call it a remote parallel, but… When I replaced oil and filter on my boat’s 4-stroke Yamaha outboard myself after a break-in period – which was ½ of manufacturer-suggested interval – I did take a close look at the motor magnetic drain plug and performed “trepanation” of the oil filter. Let me tell you, I’ve seeing enough to make me a believer in earlier first oil replacement on any new rig. After all, Touareg’s oil and filter replacement is ~$100, if I remember correctly, which is less than many folks spend on waxes and polishes (myself including).
 
#8 ·
5K or six month regardless of what any so-called "expert" says and for the life of the vehicle.

It is MY car and I'll do what I bloody well want with it!!
 
#10 · (Edited)
I think this is bang on.

I suspect an engine will easily last through the basic warranty period with marginal oil..I suspect it would likely last the warranty period on its original oil. Its likely VW spreads out the oil changes so that the stats show a low cost of ownership, if you showed oil changes every 5K miles (like you should do) the cost of ownership stats would look terrible.

If I were wanting to get maximum life out of my oil I'd get an oil analysis done at 5K miles, then stretch to 8K miles and keep increasing the interval until the oil analysis says stop.

Personally I can't see the logic in stretching out an oil change to over 10K miles on an engine that makes up 1/2 the vehicle cost...
 
#11 ·
I just had a 30 day vehicle inspection done. They ran a 20 point inspection checklist and the car was detailed inside and out. They made sure that you knew to bring the car back for up to a year 12,000 for new car adjustment items and for free add blue for 3 years/36,000 miles. They also did a 5 mile road test. They also answered any questions you might have had.
 
#13 ·
jvalek: That sounds like a great compromise and path I may take. I'm at 4600 miles currently and concerned about waiting until the 10k miles mark for my first oil change.

Fwiw: I had my first complimentary service at 3000 miles. If I remember right, they didn't do all that much either...
 
#20 ·
OEM is best, typically Mann and Mahle are the two OEM suppliers for oil filters to VW so if you can't get to a VW dealer try and find one of those two brands.
 
#21 ·
OEM is THE way to go !!

Whether one changes the oil filters @ 2,000 miles, 5,000 miles, 10,000 miles (oem recommendation), or higher: 15,000 miles, 20,000 miles, 25,000 miles, or 30,000 miles, the oem oil filters have to meet the 30,000 miles change specifications. VW oem oil filters have always had great specifications and execution.
 
#23 ·
Sensible who wants his car to last.
 
#24 ·
I have no problem with a first change at 5k, given the high amount of wear metals being thrown off during break-in.

But, 5k oil changes with 507 oil will almost certainly cause more wear to your engine over the long haul than will 10k changes.

Sounds crazy, right? But once you understand how these oils work, it makes sense.

When you do your oil change, the fresh oil is in clean phase, loosening and suspending deposits from the previous OCI. After about 500 to 1k miles, the clean phase is over and the lubricating qualities of the oil actually improve, and allow the oil to now minimize wear for quite a long time, until you change the oil and go through another cleaning phase (with the resulting poorer lubrication that comes with the cleaning phase).

So you can see that with a 5k OCI, you will put your engine through twice as many cleaning phases, with their attendant higher wear rates.

I doubt this would matter if done once or infrequently, but done every 5k for 30 or 40 OCI??

Put it this way...at the very least, you are spending twice as much money on oil and getting no benefit, and likely increasing wear a little.

Not a good bargain in my book.

A more detailed explanation is shown below, cut and pasted from TDIClub in a post by member Drivbiwire:
******************************************************************

The ORIGINAL factory APPROVED oil change interval is 30,000 miles! YES 30,000 MILES!!

Did you comprehend that?

THE ORGINAL OIL CHANGE INTERVAL APPROVAL IS 30,000 MILES!!!

Now that I have that off my chest,

VW reduced the interval from 30,000 miles to 10,000 miles in the US market...any guesses why?

Because people like you either:
1) Can't read the owners manual
2) Don't trust the car makers
3) Can't follow directions
4) Fail to adhere to the service indicator in the car

VW does NOT want oil change intervals of less than 10,000 miles due to how the oils function in the engine, shorter intervals INCREASE WEAR, Don't argue with me about it, if you take the time to track wear rates during an oil change at 250 mile intervals you can plot the reduction and stabilization of the wear rates out beyond 25,000 miles!

Think of oil as having 2 types of wear reducing additives, the first provides protection by/thru detergancy (cleansing of internal surfaces), dispersing soot, neutralizing acids (not an issue now with ULSD), and several other types as well. These additives are generally very specific to diesel engines and must pass specific tests in VW Diesel engines.

The next type of additive is a wear additive. These protect the engine where the thickness of oil may be too thin to prevent metal to metal contact. Other additves in this type range also provide protection to the cam and lifters, engine bearings, piston wrist pins etc.

Now pay attention, the 2nd group of additives account for less than 3% of the total volume of the oil. These additives also account for 90% of the engines oil protection! These additives require heat and pressure to bond with the critical wear surfaces, but due to the low percentage of additive in the oil they require time to fully place on those surfaces by the pressures of the component they are protecting. Example, an engine at operating temperature at the point where the cam presses on the lifter generates in excess of 90,000 psi, that pressure and the heat of the engine causes the 3% portion of the 1 micron thick oil film to form a crust or sacrifical layer at the point of contact. Since only 3% of the oil contains the wear additives, it requires hundreds of thousands of passes to generate a sufficient film to stop the wear at this specific point in the engine.

Everybody is quick to make the arguement that the old oil had these additives so they are already in place, right? not quite!

Remember the first type of additive? In that 1st group you had "detergents" that cleanse the inside of the motor. These cleansers are used up very rapidly after an oil change since they attack the remaining oil that was left after the oil change. These cleansers if you will also reduce the effectiveness of the high pressure wear additives...See where this is going?

Before explaining further, after that initial period the dispersants in the oil work to prevent the adhering of the particles in the oil to any of the internal surfaces. These additives are often unique to diesel engines are also the reason why the oil looks so black so quickly, they are doing their job by preventing the soot from building up in any one place instead they are dispersed in the oil evenly throughout the oil sump which prevents sludging and other contamination related issues.

Back to the detergents and the high pressure additives, the layers of high pressure additives leftover are not being replenished after the oil change due to the cleaning process that is going on with the new oil to neutralize the remaining acids, and other contaminants in the engine. As the cleaners in the oil are used up in the first 500-1000 miles, the wear additives are able to re-generate a protective layer in the engine that stops the wear at that location.

You break down the oils life cycle like this:

Phase 1: Detergants attack the internals removing accumlated contaminants, neutralize acids and force those into suspenstion in the oil. This period of time lasts between 500-1000 miles

Phase 2: During the first 1000 miles the oils viscosity provides the majority of the wear protection by virtue of the film it creates on the surfaces. This phase generates relatively high wear rates but due to the short duration this is accepted due to the removal of contaminants that could result in long term damage to the motor. Wear rates in the period of time are generally speaking 5-10ppm per 1000 miles.

Phase 3: Detergents are now used up and the oil additives are forming their protective layers in the "extreme pressure" regions of the motor. Now the oil additives are working in conjunction with the oil film and the wear rates drop from 10ppm per 1000 miles to around 1-2ppm per 1000 miles.

Phase 4: Longterm peace! The oil is operating in a period of equilibrium, the wear additives are placed, Oil viscosity is in perfect range for the engine, Dispersants are continually working to prevent soot and other contaminants from accumulating on the surfaces and wear rates remain between 1-3ppm per 1000 miles.

Phase 5: Oil run out, the oil during this phase begins to increase in viscosity (or thin in some cases), Extreme pressure additives begin to lose effectiveness due to increased concentrations of wear particles (VW tests out to 8%, most oil changes never see in excess of 2% after 30,000 miles). This is when you begin to see a rise in the wear metal formation in the engine. Often wear metals during this phase rise to the 3-8ppm per 1000 mile range. Notice that the wear metals being generated are still LOWER than they were in the first 1000 miles?
********************************************************************


Tim
 
#25 ·
Well I admit this is the first I'm hearing that new oil is worse than used oil..perhaps I should be selling my 5K used oil for a premium when I change it? heck I'd even do an even swap for 9L of fresh oil for someone who wants my used oil - I'll pay shipping both ways! :)

All kidding aside, IMO the only reason for long drain intervals is economics, the automakers know most people lease/own short term. All they care about is cost of ownership in the first 36 months. Europeans are notoriously cheap and there's no way they'd buy a vehicle with 5K or 10K oil change intervals.

So while I agree with you that in a lab the oil is made for the long haul, there is no way I'm keeping the same oil in the engine over 30K miles, that would be nearly 18 months.

The TDI engine costs around $25K to replace, so I'll continue putting in my new (which is worse than used oil) oil every 5K miles. For the $75 bucks it costs me, that's $750 bucks over 100K miles...not really that much money.
 
#37 ·
All they care about is cost of ownership in the first 36 months. Europeans are notoriously cheap and there's no way they'd buy a vehicle with 5K or 10K oil change intervals.

.
The extended service intervals have been brought on by fleet managers who only want to service a car twice over the 3 years their company keeps the car.

They have no interest at all in the longevity of the vehicle as long as the car will do 60K or 3 years for them.

Saying that Europeans are notoriously cheap is the same as saying Americans are notoriously fat. Some are, just as some Euros are cheapskates [and vice-versa!] but you can't generalise like that!
 
#27 ·
In theory your concept is sound except for one point you failed to mention. All engine oil's will dillute with fuel over time, our fuel in north america being some of the poorest quality in the world requires us to change the oil more often to avoid excessive wear. Vw set the bar at 10,000 miles, however some of us doing UOA have shown that the 10,000 mile may be a little long and that a slightly shorter 8000 is the farthest you should go.

For more info go to the UOA thread at www.TDICLUB.com

Another point, i wouldn't trust the SLX castrol the dealer puts into the car to go 30,000 miles. Maybe the Lubrimoly Top tec I use, as that is rated for almost 50,000 km use. The Euro T-reg uses better oils, better diesel fuel. Is it capable of going 30k between oil changes? In europe perhaps, but not here.
 
#28 ·
Actually the theory that is being followed is the theory you mentioned. The facts borne out by UOA's are that wear metals per 1,000 miles are actually less/LOWER for greater than 10,000 miles UOA's! . The actual problem is not many folks on the oil web sites, actually do UOA's beyond 10,000 miles !!!!! So it is a fact that it is next to impossible to get 15,000, 20,0000, 25,0000, 30,0000 miles UOA's results, IF one only runs 5,000 to 10,000 miles UOA's !! ???

So for example, I currently run 30,000 miles OCI's on a 03 Jetta TDI with 175,000 miles. Yes that is 20,000 miles PAST oem recommendations. No I do not use Castrol but use Delvac One 5w40 aka Mobil One TDT. My 09 Jetta TDI has just come off the 3 year/36,000 miles 10,000 mile OCI warranty (nexus is it uses VW 507.00 5w30, I will switch to Total Quartz INEO 5w30 VW 507.00 when the said interval is due) Anybody is welcomed to send me a UOA testing kit to a lab of their choice and have them analyze the results say @ baseline 10,000 miles, 15,000 miles 20,000 miles etc, you can post the results once you get them. Or you can come and draw the samples yourself and of course post the results once you get them.
 
#29 ·
My regurgitation of Drivbiwire's post is only to communicate the general concept that short OCIs with today's 507 oil is not necessarily "better" than the 10k recommendation from VW.

I am not going to poo-poo anyone who wants to do 5k OCIs on their Touareg. Only after I have data on that motor would I dare!

I ran my last batch of MB 229.51 spec oil (Mobil 1 Formula M 5W-40) in my '09 CR for 11,070 miles and the analysis indicated the oil could easily go 15k. I will analyze again around 200k miles on the car to make sure everything is cool.

The issue of fuel dilution is always a concern. This is one of the reasons for oil analysis when running extended OCIs. One leaking injector could compromise the engine's ability to go the distance on any given oil.

Like everything else in life, OCI is a compromise!


Tim
 
#30 ·
Thanks tarbe and Rdub7,
In the past decade of owning TDI's I was at first very wary of extended oil changes. I had been changing oil like a mad fool for decades in my various vehicles. It took a lot of reading on the TDI club site for me to back away from my then new Jetta TDI. After reading multiple posts from members like Drivebiwire and others with UOA tests, I finally became convinced that my former practice was not necessary.
Well, it's been almost ten years now with that first VW diesel, and it is still ticking without any issues whatsoever...along with my '05 Passat.

As I read this forum, I see many members not convinced of this logic so it is nice to see some of this finally posted here.
I will continue to wait for my oil changes for my new T-reg just as VW has scheduled, thank you very much!
 
#34 ·
If you were to look at this like a business analysis, you'd calculate the place on the curve where maintenance cost and repair cost intersected.

Yes, up to a point longer OCI is cheaper...both with regard to maintenance and possible repair cost. At some point, maintenance cost savings can be more than overcome by increased repair cost. That is a place none of us want to go!

Personally, I am not into what I would call ultra long intervals (say 15,000 or more). Many guys have had success with them though, under the right conditions.

I am happy to run my '09 CR at 10 - 11k miles. The Touareg is too new to know...I will probably wait until it is well broken-in before even doing a baseline analysis.
 
#35 ·
In removing oil for an analysis, what is the the simplest location? Is there enough oil in the filter reservoir to obtain a sample with a turkey baster?

Thanks

In my experience with oil analysis (and as a Chemist/Engineer with 26 years experience in the petrochemical industry), I would say sampling protocol can really make or break your whole analysis.

Many a sample has been ruined by sloppy sampling technique.

I only sample from mid-stream during a drain from the pan. I have found that pulling samples from bypass filters or dipstick tubes can give un-representative results.

That's been my experience, YMMV.


Tim