Sorry to hear of your issue. I guess this reinforces giving my new Treg a consistent diet of diesel fuel treatment with the fuel fill ups. No way it should fail after such a short distance in any case. Hopefully they will have it fixed and back to you soon.

 

Don't know whether a fuel additive would have prevented the problem -- dealer certainly hasn't claimed (yet) that fuel was at fault.

 

I don't like this post with a TREG, It's bad enough we have been hearing about HPFP problems with CR Jettas. Hope ther is some info coming out as top why. I do treat my TDIs with PS with each fill up.

 

Your in tank fuel pump destroying the rest of the fuel system is highly unlikely. It's more likely that your HPFP destroyed itself due to sub par fuel. I've always said a fuel lubricity additive is required in the US. Your fuel lubricity standards are below what the minimum required for the HPFP to operate properly.

see below. ( for comparison USA Diesel is only required to have a HFFR score of 570 Microns Lower is better)

 

Well, here's what the dealer said:

Service Writer: 'the lift pump (rear) didn't come apart gracefully -- it left metal all through the system'

Service Manager: excess cranking without sufficient lubrication -- in other words, they have to replace the fuel rail and injector pump because of trying to start the (broken) vehicle

So: No one at the dealer claimed that the HPFP caused the incident -- they say the HPFP was a casualty, not a cause. No one at the dealer has blamed the lift pump failure on fuel (yet).

 

Well, here's what the dealer said:

Service Writer: 'the lift pump (rear) didn't come apart gracefully -- it left metal all through the system'

Service Manager: excess cranking without sufficient lubrication -- in other words, they have to replace the fuel rail and injector pump because of trying to start the (broken) vehicle

So: No one at the dealer claimed that the HPFP caused the incident -- they say the HPFP was a casualty, not a cause. No one at the dealer has blamed the lift pump failure on fuel (yet).

I agree that the filter will stop all debris from the lift pump so the the first statement by the Service Writer is impossible.

However Sam, couldn't the lack of fuel due to the lift pump failure cause the HPFP to kaboomand leave debris throughout the rest of the system and be collateral damage instead of the cause, like DB said the Service Manager told him?

 

The dealer is clueless, or trying to deny the facts, this has been going on for years with the 2.0 HPFP. if they were to do an analysis of the metal fragments they're from the HPFP, which contaminate fuel lines, injectors, fuel tank ect..

If the life pump in fact did come apart all the fragments would be stopped at the fuel filter. The problem we have when the HPFP comes apart there is no filter on the return lines which allow the whole fuel system to become contaminated.

 

anyone know if MB (or others) havw been having HPFP failures ? or is this a TDI only issue?

 

This is a Bosch CP 4.1 and CP 4.2 HPFP issue... any vehicle that runs these pumps has these issues.... GMC trucks, Ford Trucks with the 6.7 Scorpion motor, all VWs and Audi TDI's.

It's such an issue that NHTSA has advanced the problem from an investigation to a defective design with Engineering Analysis being involved.

Do a search on NHTSA and look up "EA11003" and all the PDF files and Excel spread sheets in there... there is a ton of reading to do. This Engineering Analysis was started back in 2011, the original complaints were stacking up heavily in 2010 already. For 2009 jetta tdi pumps, by early 2012, the failure rate was about 4%

 

BMW and Mercedes, (chevy and ford which use the Touareg's hpfp) all have had failures, just not as well known, this is significnately more a US issue than canada, as we have the same lubricity standard as in Europe. Where we find failures in canada, is if the fuel stations mistakenly put gas in the diesel holding tanks, and of course excess water or moisture in the fuel.


Here is the data i pulled off NHTSA website in regards to the HPFP investigation. This is in regards to BMW HPFP failures. Mercedes somehow got away with not submitting any data but i know of two people at least in the us that have had similar failures.

 

Here is some older data I compiled regarding the TDI HPFP failure, all data was pulled off documents submitted by VW to the NHTSA.

Obviously the 2011 data isn't up to date which is where the gap falls.

data on left is production /sales data, on the right is failure data.


The only good news is that they've been improving the pump slowly but surely so the failure rate is actually very low. No higher than any other manufacturer for that matter.

 

Thanks SamT...on all honesty the numbers don't look outrageous, except for maybe the 09 X5 numbers.

 

there are way more up to date numbers i just haven't been following the data or had the time to compile it. i believe in total since the new CR TDI was released there were approx 500 HPFP's that imploded which were known not to be a misfuel. In total including misfueled TDIs there were 5000 cases where VW comepletely replaced the fuel system in TDI's accross the USA since the 2008 Release of the CR TDI.


The bmw numbers as far as i know are cases which were known not to be missfuels. So % wise the margin of failure is fairly similar considering VW sells way more TDI's.

 

It seems strange there is no drain valve on the bottom of the fuel filter housing. Is there a water separator or drain valve anywhere in the fuel system?

Anybody know the cost of a new HPFP? Is the part number for the improved pump different than previous designs?

It looks like it would be easy to replace. Spending $750 or so on the latest pump just before the warranty expires sounds a lot better than spending $16,000 after one goes T.U.

 

It seems strange there is no drain valve on the bottom of the fuel filter housing. Is there a water separator or drain valve anywhere in the fuel system?

Anybody know the cost of a new HPFP? Is the part number for the improved pump different than previous designs?

It looks like it would be easy to replace. Spending $750 or so on the latest pump just before the warranty expires sounds a lot better than spending $16,000 after one goes T.U.

I believe the filter still does the job of separating the water in fuel, to be honest it should settle in the tank as well. In all my other diesels with the drain valve I rarely had any accumulate in there. But you are right it should be an option. I think the New pumps run around 2-3k.

 

It's worth noting that @SamTrooper's posts to this thread are based on his theory that it's the HPFP that failed.
That's NOT what the dealer is saying and that's NOT what the dealer's service department found when they diagnosed the problem -- the diagnostics lead them to the REAR fuel pump, in the tank, which apparently had failed.
According to the dealer who is repairing the vehicle, the HPFP and fuel rail were NOT the cause of the problem; they were collateral damage.
It's interesting to see how the discussion has developed, but let's remember that it isn't necessarily consistent with reported facts.
Not saying SamTrooper is necessarily wrong, but what the dealer is telling me, so far, is not consistent with Sam's theory.

To be clear: no one who has actually examined the vehicle has told me that the failure was caused by the HPFP or by sub-standard or contaminated fuel.

 

Read up, this is old news, the pumps fail.

CR High Pressure Fuel Pump "HPFP" failure FAQ - Updated 2/8/2011 - TDIClub Forums

This is what they look like when torn down, failed HPFP's. Yes, indeed they do fail, and it's aluminum bits that magnets won't remove. If it was the lift pump failing, there would be magnetic iron bits, not aluminum bits, in your fuel, that could be removed with a magnet. Motors need magnets and steel to magnetize and spin.

CR engine HPFP analysis - TDIClub Forums

 

See post #7.

 

I don't know the dealer -- he just happened to be the closest to where the breakdown occurred -- but I have no reason to believe that he is (a) clueless or (b) lying. It's a relatively large dealership that's been around for a long time.

Anyway, why would the dealer lie?

I'm not a mechanic but I also don't see how contamination from a faulty injector pump (in front) could get to the lift pump (in back).

Anyway, it's not worth getting into an argument about. I just wanted to point out that the theory that's taken over the thread isn't consistent with observations from people on the scene.

 

My apologies if i hijacked your thread or took it into another direction that was not my intention. I simply wanted to point out that the diagnosis of the dealer may be intentionally steering your failure into another category to protect itself. We'll wait until we get more information. Please don't think I'm a Vw hater as I'm probably one of vw's biggest fans. I just think an informed customer is a happy customer.

I don't know the dealer -- he just happened to be the closest to where the breakdown occurred -- but I have no reason to believe that he is (a) clueless or (b) lying. It's a relatively large dealership that's been around for a long time.

Anyway, why would the dealer lie? The dealers don't want to point at the HPFP which would incriminate vw for selling a product which can't perform in it's target market. Especially when they're under investigation by NHTSA for this very thing. My theory is the pump has a perfect design but it also needs perfect fuel. The minimum lubricity standards aren't met in the US and need an additive.

I'm not a mechanic but I also don't see how contamination from a faulty injector pump (in front) could get to the lift pump (in back). The fuel runs from the tank by the lift pump it is pushed through a fuel filter into the HPFP, then it goes through the rail lines to injectors and back through return lines through a fuel cooler and back to the tank. When the HPFP grenades the metal flakes contaminate everything.

Anyway, it's not worth getting into an argument about. I just wanted to point out that the theory that's taken over the thread isn't consistent with observations from people on the scene.

 

It is to the benefit of all here that you have shared your story. Thank You.

This thread will likely cause me to purchase the VW real driver extended warranty listed in the Commercial posts section.

There is a filter between the lift pump and the HPFP that would in theory trap any contaminants from a shredded lift pump before they reached the HPFP.

A while back a very clever member here posted info about how it is a good idea to refuel the TDI at a 1/4 tank because of high fuel temps from the return line from the HPFP. Starting on page 5 2013 Touareg TDI vs BMW X5 diesel

 

DBSmith, thanks for sharing, curious to see what the final outcome is.

 

Thanks for posting and please keep us advised. I'm with Sam, it is unlikely that the in-tank pump was the cause as the filter is after this.

 

Interested to see how this develops, please keep us posted.

 

Just got a call from the "Touareg Executive Care" (or some such) department of VWoA in reply to an email I sent them late last week.

They will call the dealer to ascertain status of repair and projected re-delivery. Said they'd call me tomorrow, after contacting the repairing dealer.

They also said there's a $1000 roadside assistance coverage that will pay for the consequential costs -- basically, towing hotel and meals. I have to submit a claim but sounds straightforward.

Although I've owned the car for a year and a half, I'd never heard of 'Touareg Executive Care' before; anyone here know about it?

Interested to see how they handle it...

 

I should feel lucky....I had a graceful failure I guess. Had mine done last month. Never had the loss of power but had the all in one flashing glow plug of doom. The pump was dead as can be.
Running good now.

 

I hope you filed or will file a complaint with NHTSA about your failed HPFP... it's important that all failures get logged to get Vw off their butt to get Bosch to fix and make this problem go away permanently. The Bosch CP4.1 and CP4.2 as found in the Touareg Common Rail motors in VW's Porsches and Audis is beyond problematic, it is IMHO, a design defect.

I live with it, but will have no hesitation giving Vw and Bosch the middle finger when and if mine goes. I'll hole up in a nice hotel on their nickle for as long as it takes for them to get the parts from Germany to fix it right. This is a foreseeable problem, as I see it, and as the courts will see it.

 

Thanks for posting.

Can you please clarify: did your fuel pump (in rear) fail or was it the HPFP (injector pump)?
How long did you drive the vehicle once the glow plug light started flashing?

Glad yours is sorted now. Thanks for your anticipated reply.

 

DB,
It was the in tank pump. I got the flashing glow plug light one morning on start up. I shut it off and cranked it over and it was gone. I was suspicious that there was more to the issue so I called my dealer. He told me to bring it in. I drove it 20 miles....no loss of power no flashing light. They plugged it in and there was a no run code for the pump. They tried to stimulate it to run manually but it was dead so it was replaced under warranty. They indicate the reason it ran ok was the fuel tank was full.
So no major surgery for mine and its been about 5 k since it was done. If yours is covered under warranty I would let them have at it. That way if more problems occur down the line there is a good history on the issue. Let me know how it goes.. Matt

 

Your HPFP has a 70 psi fuel pressure requirement for the motor to even start up. There is a sensor on it that sends a signal to the ECU or "brain" that this pressure has been met, before the injectors will even receive a 140v electrical pulse to fire. Your lift pump, from the tank, provides part of that pressure. Another booster pump provides the final pressure to your HPFP. Everything before the HPFP, pressure wise, goes through your fuel filter, which catches everything down to 7 to 10 micron bits.

If your lift pump was bad, your car wouldn't start.

What happens is metal bits start to choke off the fuel feed inside the HPFP as they shed, and get caught by a sieve like filter. The filter is at the top of the pump, and when the pump is running and pressurized, they continue to lodge and stick at the top... however, when you shut the motor off, and the pressure and flow stops, the bits sitting in the sieve fall off the sieve, they fall down, due to gravity and lack of fuel flow. Once enough bits are formed as the pump eats itself up inside, grinding away and leaving machining bits everywhere, the sieve does not flow enough pressure to the rails, and the ECU cuts the motor off, due to too low a fuel pressure in the accumulator rails.

 

Matt,
Thanks for the very interesting information.
I was 200+ miles away from home, on a multi-lane highway, when the light began flashing. Drove another 20-30 miles with reduced throttle response -- felt like running on 2 cylinders but didn't quit. Finally decided to get off the highway and see what was wrong but the car died on the off-ramp and could not be re-started.
A good samaritan happened by and plugged in an OBD analyzer -- codes produced were p0088 and p0087.
Car is waiting on parts, 250 miles from home, now.

 

Well hopefully the parts come a bit quicker than mine...took about three days. I will look later at the service ticket if its in the car. Be interesting to see if they match.
Sounds like major surgery. My guess is its going to be a while. I would take a loaner if possible and tell them that giving them the time to get it done right is more important then when you get it back...within reason. That attitude with dealers has worked well with me in the past. They appreciate it and usually show you that but putting together a quality product in a fair time.
So good luck to you. I will look for that stuff later.

 

DB,
My post of my issue was put out on 13 November. Not sure how to send you the link but its interesting that another member chimed in about the issue as well but he had the metal shavings like you. Matt