2011 Treg TDI fuel pump failed

Niner · Jan 9, 2013

therooster70 said:
I spent two weeks at a major diesel manufactures symposium which included a spin through a place called southwest research institute in TX. One of the hot topics was bio fuels and what they are seeing with real observed results and hardcore lab testing. The bottom line is SWRI is a world leader in testing of everything and everything engine related across all types of engine lines. Most major vehicle/product mfgs. Stuff ends up there to get burned to the ground. I was in one warehouse room that had 100 gas/diesel engines on the floor that had been debadged so you couldn't tell whos stuff was whos. They took us into a test cell where there were "two competing mfgs" sitting side by side burning engines on the dyno. Security at each cell door, curtains drawn and red do not enter lights illuminated. We had a full day discussion there with fuel scientists and the two hot points were what little diesel of today resembles that of 10 years ago. The other was the relentless pursuit of making bio work in all climates. The word then was it doesnt have a place in machines if it cant be maintained above 50f temp at all time. The second point is the lack of controls in the mfg processes and the wide variences in how it is made. Basically until a standard is applied and strict monitoring by big brother is in place they were hesitant to endorse it. That is from one of the largest not for profit engineering think tanks in the world. Even the military is at odds. You have the great green fleet the navy is testing then advisories that I see to not put bio blends of any amount in my ship. So even though its heen around for a while they cannot find a formula that fits every situation. Bio hates water in any form. Condensation is a huge problem in ship tanks...heck vehicles too. The corrosion issues they are finding are a issue too. Not much different than the ethanol. So if you still have a old dodge or rabbit give it a try. Anything made during the emission compliant era stay away.
I am lucky enough that the touraeg gets good enough mpg that I have two places I fill at. One in NH and the other in ME.

the diesel of today is overly processed, refined, hydrotreated, and thinned into almost gasoline when it comes to viscosity levels. Prior diesel was a simple refining technique that left the fuel quite raw and close to raw petroleum oil. In the 1980's and 1990's, there was raw petroleum oil from Saudi Arabia that was so sweet, you could run crude Saudi Sweet in diesel motors with nothing but filtering, no refining required. It was that light.

therooster70 · Jan 9, 2013

Could be the pump because its worn out but a possible culprit for noise (old school diesel rattle....like marbles in a dryer) is air getting into the fuel system. The likely thought is if it is sucking air it will leak fuel....not always the case but a good place to start. Easy places to look are the last few things that have been worked on. A leaky filter housing lid? Stuff like that.
When I pop the hood of my T I don't smell fuel. Try filling the tank up and letting the engine get real warm. Pop the hood and sniff for the fuel smell. Works better when its warm because the fuel off gasses better. If you smell fuel try zeroing in on the source. If it is leaking it could be causing air to get drawn in on the suction side. On the return side ( rule of thumb is diesels only burn about 25% of the fuel sent to the engine...the rest is returned to the tank) a leak can cause excessive air entrainment in the tank, escalation of fuel temp, loss of power etc. Also fill the tank all the way up and observe if it could be a bit quieter with a full tank and get worse as the level drops. If it does that is typically a in tank leak....a bad pipe fitting or maybe a failed seal on the in tank pump. So a owner level thing that you could poke into.
Just remember you are playing with fire if you let that thing destroy itself. Air wont help it along.
Make sure you dont put any 91 octane in that puppy. That be gasoline. Diesel fuel is rated in Cetane. Matt

DBSmith · Jan 10, 2013

Just got an email from the supervisor of the Touareg Executive Team. Extract offered for everyone's amusement:

"We contacted the Service Manager at xxx Volkswagen to get specific details about the repair on your vehicle. He has advised us that once the vehicle was running, they found the glow plug light was on and flashing. A fault code was found for the regeneration and soot in the system, the repair order you receive will reflect this information as well as all the parts that were used or replaced.

This will be the only documentation of a technical aspect that can be provided. When a vehicle is driven, soot builds up and the vehicle automatically goes into regeneration mode. Since the vehicle cannot be driven, the dealer is putting the vehicle through the regeneration process manually. This will clean out the soot. In regard to the fuel pump repairs, the pump had a lack of lubrication. This caused it to be like metal-on-metal rubbing against each other; this is what causes metal flakes in the system. All of the above mentioned concerns have been addressed and repaired. The vehicle will be washed and detailed, and then the vehicle will be delivered to you by the dealership."

ME AGAIN: The fuel tank was still 1/2 full when the vehicle failed. While waiting for the tow truck we opened the front fuel filter canister and found it full of fuel. The filter fuel was not waxed or watery and was flowing freely -- not sure how it could be that the HPFP lacked lubrication?

Anyway, it's supposedly fixed and being detailed. No date yet for re-delivery but I'm glad that the dealer has a 300 mile trip to get here -- I won't be doing the repair test drive!

pajohn · Jan 10, 2013

So does that mean VW is blaming low quality ULSD fuel?

Niner · Jan 10, 2013

Demand that they demonstrate to you that the fuel pump they claimed failed truly did, by hooking it up to a 12 volt power supply and that it does not pump. Had you turned your ignition switch on and then tried to start the motor with the cover off the fuel filter, you could have confirmed if said pump was good with a squirting flow of fuel

Also demand to see the pictures that the technician had to supply to VW of America before a new High Pressure Fuel Pump was provided to replace the one in your car. If there is fuel with metal particles in your pressure sensor that they took off the HPFP, then your pump didn't run "dry". VW service managers are for the most part total BS'ers. When you own a TDI, unfortunately, you need to know more about your motor than the service advisor at VW, he's on a commission, it is in his best interest to screw you when he can.

There is a good reason why the folks on TDIclub refer to them as "Volkswagen Stealerships" here in the USA.

Niner · Jan 10, 2013

DBSmith said:
Just got an email from the supervisor of the Touareg Executive Team. Extract offered for everyone's amusement:

"We contacted the Service Manager at xxx Volkswagen to get specific details about the repair on your vehicle. He has advised us that once the vehicle was running, they found the glow plug light was on and flashing. A fault code was found for the regeneration and soot in the system, the repair order you receive will reflect this information as well as all the parts that were used or replaced.

This will be the only documentation of a technical aspect that can be provided. When a vehicle is driven, soot builds up and the vehicle automatically goes into regeneration mode. Since the vehicle cannot be driven, the dealer is putting the vehicle through the regeneration process manually. This will clean out the soot. In regard to the fuel pump repairs, the pump had a lack of lubrication. This caused it to be like metal-on-metal rubbing against each other; this is what causes metal flakes in the system. All of the above mentioned concerns have been addressed and repaired. The vehicle will be washed and detailed, and then the vehicle will be delivered to you by the dealership."

ME AGAIN: The fuel tank was still 1/2 full when the vehicle failed. While waiting for the tow truck we opened the front fuel filter canister and found it full of fuel. The filter fuel was not waxed or watery and was flowing freely -- not sure how it could be that the HPFP lacked lubrication?

Anyway, it's supposedly fixed and being detailed. No date yet for re-delivery but I'm glad that the dealer has a 300 mile trip to get here -- I won't be doing the repair test drive!

Did you file a written complaint yet via email with NHTSA yet? If so, did they get back to you in a reasonable amount of time, say 2 business days for more information?

DBSmith · Jan 10, 2013

The incident is being covered 100% by warranty. I'm not in a position, nor do I especially care, to "demand" anything at this point.

I filed an on-line complaint with NHTSA. No acknowledgement from NHTSA yet.

I think it's unlikely that I'll keep the car. I'm done with diesels and pretty sour on VW now. Not that the car failed -- that can happen to any car -- but I don't like the 'mushroom' treatment I've gotten, trying to get a truthful diagnosis of what happened. VW Customer Care is totally, 100%, useless -- a total waste of time.

Niner · Jan 10, 2013

That's an accurate description.... mushroom treatment, kept in the dark and fed B.S. Maybe file a complaint about the dealership with VW of A once you get your car back, while it's still fresh on your mind and you want to tell them how you really feel.

I don't blame you at all.

Thank you for filing the NHTSA complaint, it will go into the data base as more evidence that VW and in particular, Bosch have a problem with this fuel pump design.

Your half tank of fuel will be thrown away, it's completely contaminated now, and if you even find 1/4 tank in your vehicle when it comes back to you, you will be lucky.

nickm · Jan 11, 2013

DBSmith said:
The incident is being covered 100% by warranty. I'm not in a position, nor do I especially care, to "demand" anything at this point.

I filed an on-line complaint with NHTSA. No acknowledgement from NHTSA yet.

I think it's unlikely that I'll keep the car. I'm done with diesels and pretty sour on VW now. Not that the car failed -- that can happen to any car -- but I don't like the 'mushroom' treatment I've gotten, trying to get a truthful diagnosis of what happened. VW Customer Care is totally, 100%, useless -- a total waste of time.

My thinking would be the same as yours at this point

DBSmith · Jan 11, 2013

Vehicle is back from dealer. Apparently the first 300 miles (with dealer's driver) were trouble-free.

I have the service invoice with parts and labor performed but can't figure out how to post it without identifying the dealer. Anyone who wants to see it, probably best to ask via private mail.

Asked the Service Manager if I should do anything "different" to avoid similar problems in future, e.g. fuel additives, change fuel supplier. Reply was "you did nothing wrong and there's no reason to change anything!"

Specifically asked about fuel additives and was told "VW doesn't recommend that you use any additives".

I'll wash and inspect the car cosmetics tomorrow -- can do that in my garage. First impression is that whatever they used to detail the interior stinks to high heaven!

Nice to have my Touareg back.

Niner · Jan 11, 2013

DBSmith said:
Vehicle is back from dealer. Apparently the first 300 miles (with dealer's driver) were trouble-free.

I have the service invoice with parts and labor performed but can't figure out how to post it without identifying the dealer. Anyone who wants to see it, probably best to ask via private mail.

Asked the Service Manager if I should do anything "different" to avoid similar problems in future, e.g. fuel additives, change fuel supplier. Reply was "you did nothing wrong and there's no reason to change anything!"

Specifically asked about fuel additives and was told "VW doesn't recommend that you use any additives".

I'll wash and inspect the car cosmetics tomorrow -- can do that in my garage. First impression is that whatever they used to detail the interior stinks to high heaven!

Nice to have my Touareg back.

If you read Bosch literature, they highly recommend fuel with very low wear scar readings for breaking in your HPFP and whole fuel system, for "good Run In" the first couple of tanks of fuel. Like something below 400 micron wear scar fuel... In other words, some US diesel fuel blended to 2 % biodiesel made from virgin soy bean is a really good idea for the first few tanks (3-4). Also, don't go hammering deep into the throttle while the new HPFP is breaking the cam in on it. Give the mating surfaces a break, let them mate in gently.

nickm · Jan 11, 2013

glad to hear its back and running well

DBSmith · Jan 11, 2013

Niner said:
If you read Bosch literature, they highly recommend fuel with very low wear scar readings for breaking in your HPFP and whole fuel system, for "good Run In" the first couple of tanks of fuel. Like something below 400 micron wear scar fuel... In other words, some US diesel fuel blended to 2 % biodiesel made from virgin soy bean is a really good idea for the first few tanks (3-4). Also, don't go hammering deep into the throttle while the new HPFP is breaking the cam in on it. Give the mating surfaces a break, let them mate in gently.

All I can report is that the VW Service Manager and VW Customer Care both told me that no additives are recommended. Your mileage may vary.

volkswagendude · Jan 11, 2013

DBSmith said:
All I can report is that the VW Service Manager and VW Customer Care both told me that no additives are recommended. Your mileage may vary.

Interesting how things have changed from a mere few years ago, and regarding additives and the PD engines. VW had a TSB out circa 2005, on using Stanadyne additive to solve and prevent certain drivability issues(I forget what precisely those were now) with TDI models of the time.
Our VW dealer stocked shelves of this product.

Just thought I'd bring it up in retrospect.

Sent from my iPhone using AutoGuide.com Free App

SamTrooper · Jan 11, 2013

DBSmith said:
All I can report is that the VW Service Manager and VW Customer Care both told me that no additives are recommended. Your mileage may vary.

If they recommended addtives with the new Cr diesels they would be admitting the vehicles are not adapted to run on US fuel.

Niner · Jan 12, 2013

2003 fuel requirements for bosch diesel pumps, note actual lubricity of 80% of samples exceed 460 micron wear scar.

http://www.arb.ca.gov/fuels/gasoline/meeting/2003/022003bosch.pdf

http://www.globaldenso.com/en/topics/files/120730common_position_paper.pdf

Note the lubricity standards on page 2 and suggested "run in" standard of less than 400 micron wear scar fuel. How you get there is up to you, biodiesel at even 1% lowers wear scar to under 300 microns, per the spicer lubricity report, go Google it.

nickm · Jan 12, 2013

volkswagendude said:
Interesting how things have changed from a mere few years ago, and regarding additives and the PD engines. VW had a TSB out circa 2005, on using Stanadyne additive to solve and prevent certain drivability issues(I forget what precisely those were now) with TDI models of the time.
Our VW dealer stocked shelves of this product.

Just thought I'd bring it up in retrospect.

Sent from my iPhone using AutoGuide.com Free App

Yep I remember this well. How many 15K fuel system jobs before the cases of lubricity additive show up at dealers?

soflatreg · Jan 12, 2013

Wow, I'm glad I fought the urge to get a TDI T-reg; after the whole HPFP fiasco with the TDI Sportwagens, I was hoping it wouldn't affect T-regs. Guess I was wrong. Glad to have gotten out of TDIs in the meantime until VAG/Bosch figures all of this out.

Niner · Jan 12, 2013

Biodiesel is not fuel additive, it is fuel supplement. You are supplementing sub standard lubricity in standard fuel. Germany runs B7 in everything, however it is rapeseed based biodiesel, not soy based, as in North America, although Canola oil in Canada is very close to rapeseed based.

roalco · Jan 12, 2013

Canola oil is rapeseed oil, it's just a marketing name change.

2011 Treg TDI fuel pump failed

Niner

therooster70

DBSmith

pajohn

Niner

Niner

DBSmith

Niner

nickm

DBSmith

Niner

nickm

DBSmith

volkswagendude

SamTrooper

Niner

nickm

soflatreg

Niner

roalco

Top Contributors this Month

Recommended Communities