What makes VW 507 oil so necessary?

58370 Views 195 Replies 33 Participants Last post by jeffnhiscars, Mar 23, 2022

BenTDI

Discussion Starter · May 27, 2016

I can't help but to think, if our vehicles-3.0 TDI motors-are so special, so expensive and so exclusive, why do we need the magical VW 507 spec. oil? What is it in our motors that makes them so seemingly magical that they need this oil we can't just by at Vatozone, Advanced Auto, Walmart, etc. and have to pay about $10 a quart for?

121 - 140 of 196 Posts

Black Grouse

· #121 · Jun 11, 2016

BeemerMikeTX said:
I thought the purpose of forums like this is for people to pose questions that they have, and then have other forum members provide them with any answers or information that they have. You know, sharing knowledge. The original poster asked why our engines need the "magical" 507.00 engine oil that we cannot get at our local auto parts or big box stores. Although some of us have attempted to discuss what is the "magic" about 507.00, most of the posts have dealt with side issues like 507.00 oil is not that expensive, don't put anything but 507.00 in your engine, or how you can get 507.00 at your VW dealer or online ordering.

So what we need to do is just send all of our questions to VW HQ in Germany? Sorry, my bad.

IMO, there's nothing special about 507.00, just a very particular specification, like many others these days.

What's "special" is the lack of distribution of the oil in the US, in comparison to other parts of the world - but probably in proportion to the % sales of VW Group diesels in the US, much lower than in Europe.

BeemerMikeTX

· #122 · Jun 11, 2016

Black Grouse said:
IMO, there's nothing special about 507.00, just a very particular specification, like many others these days. What's "special" is the lack of distribution of the oil in the US, in comparison to other parts of the world - but probably in proportion to the % sales of VW Group diesels in the US, much lower than in Europe.

Well, we know that one thing "special" about 507.00 is low SAPS to protect the DPF. Any other basis for your "IMO"?

Black Grouse

· #123 · Jun 11, 2016

BeemerMikeTX said:
Well, we know that one thing "special" about 507.00 is low SAPS to protect the DPF. Any other basis for your "IMO"?

Most oils in Europe are low SAPS now anyway - DPFs have been mandatory on diesels, around 50% of the market, since 2009 and fitted to many models for nearly a decade before that - and the concept here of different oils for diesel and petrol/gasoline has all but disappeared so the reality is that the big majority of all vehicles, diesel or petrol, use ACEA-C3 which is low SAPS.

Low SAPS oil may be special in the US, but not in Europe.

noobytoogy

· #124 · Jun 11, 2016

BeemerMikeTX said:
I thought the purpose of forums like this is for people to pose questions that they have, and then have other forum members provide them with any answers or information that they have. You know, sharing knowledge. The original poster asked why our engines need the "magical" 507.00 engine oil that we cannot get at our local auto parts or big box stores. Although some of us have attempted to discuss what is the "magic" about 507.00, most of the posts have dealt with side issues like 507.00 oil is not that expensive, don't put anything but 507.00 in your engine, or how you can get 507.00 at your VW dealer or online ordering.

So what we need to do is just send all of our questions to VW HQ in Germany? Sorry, my bad.

Since you seem to argue somewhat pointlessly with many of the answers you get, it does seem you'd be better served in this case by asking the people who make the car then, perhaps, you can make a useful contribution by telling the rest of us what VW says.

Reactions: 2

Philth

· #125 · Jun 12, 2016

noobytoogy said:
Since you seem to argue somewhat pointlessly with many of the answers you get, it does seem you'd be better served in this case by asking the people who make the car then, perhaps, you can make a useful contribution by telling the rest of us what VW says.

This.

Glad I'm not the only one.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

BeemerMikeTX

· #126 · Jun 12, 2016

noobytoogy said:
Since you seem to argue somewhat pointlessly with many of the answers you get, it does seem you'd be better served in this case by asking the people who make the car then, perhaps, you can make a useful contribution by telling the rest of us what VW says.

Maybe you and others should go back and review the question that was asked in BenTDI's post #1 that started the thread:

"I can't help but to think, if our vehicles-3.0 TDI motors-are so special, so expensive and so exclusive, why do we need the magical VW 507 spec. oil? What is it in our motors that makes them so seemingly magical that they need this oil we can't just by at Vatozone, Advanced Auto, Walmart, etc. and have to pay about $10 a quart for?"

Most of the "answers" in this thread do NOT address the original question. Now, I understand that it is easier for folks to talk about what they DO know rather than admit what they do NOT know, or just not talk at all, but that does not get BenTDI's question answered.

BeemerMikeTX

· #127 · Jun 12, 2016

Black Grouse said:
Most oils in Europe are low SAPS now anyway - DPFs have been mandatory on diesels, around 50% of the market, since 2009 and fitted to many models for nearly a decade before that - and the concept here of different oils for diesel and petrol/gasoline has all but disappeared so the reality is that the big majority of all vehicles, diesel or petrol, use ACEA-C3 which is low SAPS.

Low SAPS oil may be special in the US, but not in Europe.

And yet, VW still has its "special" 507.00 oil specification, rather than just use ACEA-C3 that the big majority of all vehicles use. Do you think VW does not understand that ACEA-C3 oil is "good enough" for their TDIs?

So, once again, back to the original question that was actually asked in post #1, "why do we need the magical 507 spec. oil?"

Black Grouse

· #128 · Jun 12, 2016

BeemerMikeTX said:
And yet, VW still has its "special" 507.00 oil specification, rather than just use ACEA-C3 that the big majority of all vehicles use. Do you think VW does not understand that ACEA-C3 oil is "good enough" for their TDIs?

So, once again, back to the original question that was actually asked in post #1, "why do we need the magical 507 spec. oil?"

BMW, Mercedes-Benz, Opel/Vauxhall (GM), Ford all issue their own specification which is used globally.

The problem with oil "standards" is that API is American with only the viscosity anything like universal, certainly the Service Category, eg SN is ignored elsewhere - and ACEA Classifications, eg C3, are primarily just European.

VW 507.00 means the same everywhere on the globe, just as a GM specification, eg LL-B-025 or Dexos 2, means the same everywhere - and similarly for the other brands.

nickm

· #129 · Jun 12, 2016

Just on the consistency theme, I'm beginning to wonder if that's why VW mandates the 507 spec. They know what 507 is all about and in the case of a warranty claim there becomes less doubt on if the proper oil was used. There are some very low quality oils out there, so I suppose it's much easier to not fill a warranty claim based on improper oil grade as the requirement is set up front.

GM is starting to do something similar with the higher end 6.0, 6.2 and 7.0 engines, where the "factory filled with Mobil 1" sticker under the hood is a strong suggestion to use a single specific oil.

When my Ford 6.4 diesel barfed out a piston they not only checked for oil change interval, but also which specific oil I had used.

BeemerMikeTX

· #130 · Jun 12, 2016

Black Grouse said:
BMW, Mercedes-Benz, Opel/Vauxhall (GM), Ford all issue their own specification which is used globally.

The problem with oil "standards" is that API is American with only the viscosity anything like universal, certainly the Service Category, eg SN is ignored elsewhere - and ACEA Classifications, eg C3, are primarily just European.

Well, not always. BMW specifies that my US model 2013 BMW K1300S motorcycle use oil with a classification of "API SL / JASO MA2", JASO MA2 being a Japanese oil classification. No mention of a special BMW specification.

And many oils in the US DO carry an ACEA rating/approval. Mobil 1 5W-30 (non-ESP) has an ACEA A1/B1 rating. Mobil 1 ESP 5W-30 has an ACEA C3/C2 rating, in addition to VW's 504.00/507.00 approval and BMW's Longlife-04 approval. On the other hand, Mobil 1 ESP X1 0W-30 also has an ACEA C3/C2 rating and BMW's Longlife-04 approval, but NOT VW's 504.00/507.00 approval. Both Mobil 1 ESP oils are listed as "low SAPS", but only the 5W-30 has VW's 504.00/507.00 approval (and Porsche's C30 approval). I also noted that the 0W-30 carries API SN approval, but the 5W-30 carries no API approval (but does carry a Porsche C30 approval and some Chrysler and JASO approvals). It seems unlikely that ExxonMobil would pay to perform the tests on the two ESP oils to qualify for the API, ACEA, Mercedes-Benz, BMW, and VW approvals, and not list EVERY approval they qualify for or skip the cost of the test(s) that would get them the qualification.

Black Grouse said:
VW 507.00 means the same everywhere on the globe, just as a GM specification, eg LL-B-025 or Dexos 2, means the same everywhere - and similarly for the other brands.

So, back to the original question in post #1, what does 507.00 mean? It's OK if you just say "I don't know".

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BeemerMikeTX

· #131 · Jun 12, 2016

nickm said:
Just on the consistency theme, I'm beginning to wonder if that's why VW mandates the 507 spec. They know what 507 is all about and in the case of a warranty claim there becomes less doubt on if the proper oil was used. There are some very low quality oils out there, so I suppose it's much easier to not fill a warranty claim based on improper oil grade as the requirement is set up front.

An excellent question. I don't know if VW's 507.00 specification/approval has a QA/QC component included in it. But, since Mobil 1 ESP 5W-30 does carry 507.00 approval and Mobil 1 ESP X1 0W-30 does not carry 507.00 approval, I am skeptical that QA/QC is the deciding factor.

Black Grouse

· #132 · Jun 12, 2016

BeemerMikeTX said:
An excellent question. I don't know if VW's 507.00 specification/approval has a QA/QC component included in it. But, since Mobil 1 ESP 5W-30 does carry 507.00 approval and Mobil 1 ESP X1 0W-30 does not carry 507.00 approval, I am skeptical that QA/QC is the deciding factor.

One of the posts upthread shows that the only viscosity's included in 507.00 are 5W-30 and 0W-20.

BeemerMikeTX

· #133 · Jun 12, 2016

Black Grouse said:
One of the posts upthread shows that the only viscosity's included in 507.00 are 5W-30 and 0W-20.

Yes, I believe you are remembering MY post, that showed ALL of the oils on VW's 504.00/507.00 list are 5W-30. There were no 0W-20 oils on the list. In my owner's manual, it says if you cannot find a 504.00/507.00 oil, you can add up to 1/2 quart of ACEA A3 oil with a viscosity of 5W-30 or 5W-40. So, it seems clear that VW does not approve of using any 0W oils in their TDI engines.

Black Grouse

· #134 · Jun 12, 2016

BeemerMikeTX said:
Yes, I believe you are remembering MY post, that showed ALL of the oils on VW's 504.00/507.00 list are 5W-30. There were no 0W-20 oils on the list. In my owner's manual, it says if you cannot find a 504.00/507.00 oil, you can add up to 1/2 quart of ACEA A3 oil with a viscosity of 5W-30 or 5W-40. So, it seems clear that VW does not approve of using any 0W oils in their TDI engines.

A different post, #102, gives a specification for 507.00 which lists both 5W-30 and 0W-30 - my bad, I wrongly recalled it as 0W-20.

BeemerMikeTX

· #135 · Jun 12, 2016

Black Grouse said:
A different post, #102, gives a specification for 507.00 which lists both 5W-30 and 0W-30 - my bad, I wrongly recalled it as 0W-20.

Post #102 is from a handbook by Afton Chemical. VW's list in their Technical Bulletin only shows oils with viscosity of 5W-30 as 504.00/507.00 approved. Whose chart do you think we should believe?

https://www.audiusa.com/content/dam/audiusa/Documents/Audi-1997-2012-Technical-Service-Bulletin.pdf

http://www.anciravolkswagen.com/blogs/949/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Approved-Oil-List.pdf

Black Grouse

· #136 · Jun 13, 2016

BeemerMikeTX said:
Post #102 is from a handbook by Afton Chemical. VW's list in their Technical Bulletin only shows oils with viscosity of 5W-30 as 504.00/507.00 approved. Whose chart do you think we should believe?

https://www.audiusa.com/content/dam/audiusa/Documents/Audi-1997-2012-Technical-Service-Bulletin.pdf

http://www.anciravolkswagen.com/blogs/949/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Approved-Oil-List.pdf

Documents from VWoA only apply in the USA - 507.00 is a global specification.

It seems clear to me that demand for 507.00 in USA is lower than other parts of the world, down to the difference in market penetration of VW diesels.

BeemerMikeTX

· #137 · Jun 13, 2016

Black Grouse said:
Documents from VWoA only apply in the USA - 507.00 is a global specification.

It seems clear to me that demand for 507.00 in USA is lower than other parts of the world, down to the difference in market penetration of VW diesels.

Did you read the two documents? The VW Technical Bulletin says it is a "Worldwide" list of engine oils that meet the 504.00/507.00 specification, and that not all of them may be available in North America. The much shorter Audi TSB list says they are the 504.00/507.00 oils that are generally available in North America.

But, if you have a "VW-Europe" list, or an actual container of oil, that shows a 0W-30 engine oil with a VW 504.00/507.00 approval, please let us know about it.

Black Grouse

· #138 · Jun 13, 2016

BeemerMikeTX said:
Did you read the two documents? The VW Technical Bulletin says it is a "Worldwide" list of engine oils that meet the 504.00/507.00 specification, and that not all of them may be available in North America. The much shorter Audi TSB list says they are the 504.00/507.00 oils that are generally available in North America.

But, if you have a "VW-Europe" list, or an actual container of oil, that shows a 0W-30 engine oil with a VW 504.00/507.00 approval, please let us know about it.

Shell Helix Ultra ECT C2/C3 0w-30 Car Engine Oil

Found in 20 seconds using Google!

BeemerMikeTX

· #139 · Jun 13, 2016

Black Grouse said:
Shell Helix Ultra ECT C2/C3 0w-30 Car Engine Oil

Found in 20 seconds using Google!

Found in 20 seconds, but took days to tell us about it.

But thanks for letting us know that a 0W-30 507.00 oil actually exists. I never searched for 0W-30 and 507.00 before (I was just searching for 507.00 oils), but a quick search for that now indicates that a 0W-30 oil that meets 507.00 is a fairly recent development only in the last year or two, and there are not that many of them yet. This probably explains why none of them are on the VW or Audi lists, which have publication dates around 2012 or so.

Which of course raises the question of why it has taken so long for a 0W-30 oil to get 507.00 approval. There are five Shell Helix Ultra 5W-30 oils on the VW 507.00 list (although none are "ECT"), but no Shell Ultra ECT (Emissions Compatible Technology) 0W-30 . . . which is apparently a new formulation.

Black Grouse

· #140 · Jun 13, 2016

You seem determined to have a dig at anyone who tries to help - I'm out of this thread.

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