What makes VW 507 oil so necessary?

58588 Views 195 Replies 33 Participants Last post by jeffnhiscars, Mar 23, 2022

BenTDI

Discussion Starter · May 27, 2016

I can't help but to think, if our vehicles-3.0 TDI motors-are so special, so expensive and so exclusive, why do we need the magical VW 507 spec. oil? What is it in our motors that makes them so seemingly magical that they need this oil we can't just by at Vatozone, Advanced Auto, Walmart, etc. and have to pay about $10 a quart for?

21 - 40 of 196 Posts

Fourdiesel

· #21 · May 28, 2016

nickm said:
The big deal about 505 and 507 is specific protection for cam lobe wear. 507 is for dpf and 505 is non dpf. The way the tdi engine is designed, it requires a specific oil to prevent premature cam lobe wear.

Any modern diesel oil can deal with dpfs, but only 507 can deal with cam lobe wear prevention.

Cam lobe wear is ONLY a critical issue on pump-deuse injector motors. Anything with a common-rail hpfp and piezoelectric injectors does NOT have the extra cam which takes up space and makes all the cams the limiting factor.

To the op - all the diesel manufacturers qualify the engines/emissions control systems as a unit. The proper additive package in the oil is just as important to correct emissions control function as the O2 sensors are. The additives (think zinc which USED to be a common anti wear additive) CANNOT be allowed to contaminate catalytic surfaces. If that happens the emissions systems fail. Hence, many manufacturers are pretty insistent that ONLY listed lube oils be used. Also, manufacturers are required by US law to make sure alternate sources of maintenance consumables are always available WITHOUT having to purchase from the dealer.

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182RG

· #22 · May 29, 2016

compu_85 said:
In the CR TDIs I don't think cam wear will be an issue since they have roller rockers now.

^ This ^

BeemerMikeTX

· #23 · May 30, 2016

OK, which is it about 507 oil? Low SAPS to protect the cats or more lubrication to protect the cams? ZDDP is the usual additive for cam/tappet protection, but that would seem to increase SAPS. So, does anyone know what is the "magic" in 507?

4ePikanini

· #24 · May 30, 2016

507.00 is the best of all

it is low ash for the protection of DPF Catalytic converters and urea after treatment systems
it is fully synthetic for long life - extended drain intervals lowers running costs
it has additives that carry soot in suspension - you don't want that stuff clogging up in one place
it has anti corrosive additives - the sulphur in diesel makes it's way past the rings as blowby and acidifies the oil
it has high shear protection for the bearings and cam rollers
it has detergents to clean your engine
it has additives to stop foaming which is bad for oil pressure
it is viscosity stable to ensure proper protection at various temperatures and cold start

There is more to oil than you think. It's a fancy car with an expensive engine. Relatively 507.00 is dirt cheap. Use it!

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BeemerMikeTX

· #25 · May 30, 2016

4ePikanini said:
507.00 is the best of all

it is low ash for the protection of DPF Catalytic converters and urea after treatment systems
it is fully synthetic for long life - extended drain intervals lowers running costs
it has additives that carry soot in suspension - you don't want that stuff clogging up in one place
it has anti corrosive additives - the sulphur in diesel makes it's way past the rings as blowby and acidifies the oil
it has high shear protection for the bearings and cam rollers
it has detergents to clean your engine
it has additives to stop foaming which is bad for oil pressure
it is viscosity stable to ensure proper protection at various temperatures and cold start

There is more to oil than you think. It's a fancy car with an expensive engine. Relatively 507.00 is dirt cheap. Use it!

All you've done is make a list of generic engine oil properties. I worked for the company that makes Mobil 1 (including the Mobil 1 ESP 5W-30 that meets 504 00 and 507 00), so I understand that "there is more to oil than you think". My question was more does anyone know what specifically is different about 507 00 oil from other high quality synthetic oils, and not really how can I avoid using VW 507 00 oil.

Maybe I'll go to the Mobil 1 web page and see if I can see any property/additive differences between Mobil 1 ESP 5W-30 and "regular" Mobil 1 5W-30.

EDIT: A quick check of the Mobil 1 web page for product specifications indicates that Mobil 1 ESP 5W-30 and regular Mobil 1 5W-30 both have the same phosphorus and zinc contents (800 ppm and 900 ppm, the lowest of the Mobil 1 formulations), but Mobil 1 ESP is designated "low SAPS" while regular Mobil 1 is not. So, maybe low SAPS is the key property difference for 507 00.

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Black Grouse

· #26 · May 30, 2016

4ePikanini said:
507.00 is the best of all

it is low ash for the protection of DPF Catalytic converters and urea after treatment systems
it is fully synthetic for long life - extended drain intervals lowers running costs
it has additives that carry soot in suspension - you don't want that stuff clogging up in one place
it has anti corrosive additives - the sulphur in diesel makes it's way past the rings as blowby and acidifies the oil
it has high shear protection for the bearings and cam rollers
it has detergents to clean your engine
it has additives to stop foaming which is bad for oil pressure
it is viscosity stable to ensure proper protection at various temperatures and cold start

There is more to oil than you think. It's a fancy car with an expensive engine. Relatively 507.00 is dirt cheap. Use it!

Most modern diesel engines require all those properties, well defined in ACEA-C3 which most 507.00 oils will also meet.

nickm

· #27 · May 31, 2016

Fourdiesel said:
Cam lobe wear is ONLY a critical issue on pump-deuse injector motors. Anything with a common-rail hpfp and piezoelectric injectors does NOT have the extra cam which takes up space and makes all the cams the limiting factor.

To the op - all the diesel manufacturers qualify the engines/emissions control systems as a unit. The proper additive package in the oil is just as important to correct emissions control function as the O2 sensors are. The additives (think zinc which USED to be a common anti wear additive) CANNOT be allowed to contaminate catalytic surfaces. If that happens the emissions systems fail. Hence, many manufacturers are pretty insistent that ONLY listed lube oils be used. Also, manufacturers are required by US law to make sure alternate sources of maintenance consumables are always available WITHOUT having to purchase from the dealer.

There is a long list of 507 oils that you can buy Anywhere so nobody is saying you must buy it at the dealer.

Every current diesel sold on this continent has cats, dpfs and urea injection, so there is nothing special about VW spec in this regard that every other diesel oil spec doesn't already meet, so none of those reasons are why 507 is special.

Afaik the relatively narrow lobes of the camshaft was the reason why cam lobe wear was a big deal.

nickm

· #28 · May 31, 2016

compu_85 said:
In the CR TDIs I don't think cam wear will be an issue since they have roller rockers now.

-J

When did VW ever use flat tappets? Afaik all tdis have been roller rockers

4ePikanini

· #29 · May 31, 2016

nickm said:
When did VW ever use flat tappets? Afaik all tdis have been roller rockers

The R5 and V10 is flat tappet.

Ironically the non DPF R5 and V10 can NOT use 507.00 as the bearings arent happy with 507.00.

Like I said, there is more to oil than meets the eye. Im not an oil expert so cant go into detail. VW spends millions on research and you think you know better by buying cheaper. If you cant afford the specified oil you shouldnt have bought a touareg in the first place.

But if you think you know better, go for it. Your risk, not ours.

BeemerMikeTX

· #30 · May 31, 2016

4ePikanini said:
The R5 and V10 is flat tappet.

Ironically the non DPF R5 and V10 can NOT use 507.00 as the bearings arent happy with 507.00.

Like I said, there is more to oil than meets the eye. Im not an oil expert so cant go into detail. VW spends millions on research and you think you know better by buying cheaper. If you cant afford the specified oil you shouldnt have bought a touareg in the first place.

But if you think you know better, go for it. Your risk, not ours.

I don't think most people are complaining about the cost of VW 507 00. The complaints seem to be more about the availability, especially if you don't live near a VW dealer. I live 12 miles from my VW dealer, and they charge me $9.91 per quart, so I don't have either complaint.

Most questions, and certainly mine, have to do with what is technically different about 507 00 engine oil compared to other high-quality synthetic oils (and I guess also the difference between 507 00 and 504 00, although the VW Technical Bulletin indicates that the Pumpe-Duse engines can use 507 00, and the Mobil 1 web page indicates that Mobil 1 ESP 5W-30 meets both 504 00 and 507 00). From the Mobil 1 product web page, low SAPS seems to be the difference for 507 00.

MtnPass

· #31 · May 31, 2016

We burn a very small amount of oil and normally drive 8000 to 10000 between oil changes. I had oil changed back in February and we drove about 4000 miles before the Memorial Day holiday weekend. Over the holiday weekend we drove about 2000 miles to our parents home. I checked the oil before we left and it was at the mid point on the stick.

The dealer who changes the oil has a tendency to not fill it completely full. I am not sure why? >:

Well, I checked the oil level this morning and it was near the bottom. I must not have checked the oil on a "level" surface at home.

SO here we are on Memorial Day with 800 mile drive ahead of us in the middle of nowhere Missouri. I was so glad I had an extra 507 quart squirreled away in the back compartment. I think dealer is the only place to buy this oil. We are lucky to be home tonight.

The oil level is still at the top after todays drive. It pays to keep some on hand.

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compu_85

· #32 · May 31, 2016

nickm said:
When did VW ever use flat tappets? Afaik all tdis have been roller rockers

4ePikanini said:
The R5 and V10 is flat tappet.

All the older rotary pump diesels, and the PDs have flat tappets.

-J

Black Grouse

· #33 · May 31, 2016

BeemerMikeTX said:
I don't think most people are complaining about the cost of VW 507 00. The complaints seem to be more about the availability, especially if you don't live near a VW dealer. I live 12 miles from my VW dealer, and they charge me $9.91 per quart, so I don't have either complaint.

Most questions, and certainly mine, have to do with what is technically different about 507 00 engine oil compared to other high-quality synthetic oils (and I guess also the difference between 507 00 and 504 00, although the VW Technical Bulletin indicates that the Pumpe-Duse engines can use 507 00, and the Mobil 1 web page indicates that Mobil 1 ESP 5W-30 meets both 504 00 and 507 00). From the Mobil 1 product web page, low SAPS seems to be the difference for 507 00.

It's not just low SAPs - some low SAPs oils meeting ACEA-C3, which is specifically for low SAPs oils, don't meet VW 507.00 or any other VW specification.

Engine oil is notoriously expensive in the UK but now that new diesels sold in the last 5 years have DPFs, there's a good choice of ACEA-C3 which has brought the price down - many of them also meeting VW 507.00

BeemerMikeTX

· #34 · May 31, 2016

Black Grouse said:
It's not just low SAPs - some low SAPs oils meeting ACEA-C3, which is specifically for low SAPs oils, don't meet VW 507.00 or any other VW specification.

Well, then what IS different about the 507 00 specs relative to other ACEA-C3 oils? Mobil 1 ESP X1 0W-30 also meets ACEA-C3 (and C2), and has low SAPS, and meets Mercedes and BMW diesel requirements, but does not meet VW 507 00. If you don't know, then just say you don't know.

Black Grouse

· #35 · May 31, 2016

BeemerMikeTX said:
Well, then what IS different about the 507 00 specs relative to other ACEA-C3 oils? Mobil 1 ESP X1 0W-30 also meets ACEA-C3 (and C2), and has low SAPS, and meets Mercedes and BMW diesel requirements, but does not meet VW 507 00. If you don't know, then just say you don't know.

I do know it's not JUST low SAPs - that's all I was saying.

Within the UK market, no oil meeting VW 507.00 has 0W viscosity, 5W being the lowest.

Philth

· #36 · May 31, 2016

Could be the fact that they don't want to pay for the 507 00 cert? I know that's expensive.

BeemerMikeTX

· #37 · May 31, 2016

Black Grouse said:
I do know it's not JUST low SAPs - that's all I was saying.

Within the UK market, no oil meeting VW 507.00 has 0W viscosity, 5W being the lowest.

I never said it was JUST low SAPS that met 507 00. I said low SAPS was the only apparent difference on the Mobil 1 product page between "regular" Mobil 1 5W-30 (NOT 507 00) and Mobil 1 ESP 5W-30 (IS 507 00). So 507 00 may indeed require a specified viscosity combined with low SAPS. In VW's Technical Bulletin, it appears that EVERY oil that meets 507 00 (and 504 00) has a viscosity of 5W-30.

Stabone33

· #38 · May 31, 2016

Philth said:
Could be the fact that they don't want to pay for the 507 00 cert? I know that's expensive.

Everything I've read on the subject seems to be along these lines -- there may be other motor oils that meet the 507 spec but they haven't been submitted to VW for certification. Likewise with the MB spec.

Since there aren't many VW diesels on the road in the US, there isn't much reason to spend the money to gain the certification except for the two biggies (Mobil and Castrol) who sell worldwide.

I can find the Motul stuff at a couple local auto parts stores, but it's under the counter in a glass case like it's some kind of top-shelf scotch or something. I think it's like $12/liter. Never bought it because the Castrol LL03 is so cheap at the dealer.

BeemerMikeTX

· #39 · May 31, 2016

Stabone33 said:
Everything I've read on the subject seems to be along these lines -- there may be other motor oils that meet the 507 spec but they haven't been submitted to VW for certification.

Maybe, but there is a LONG list of oils in the VW Technical Bulletin that VW says meets their 507 00 spec. All of them 5W-30.

Stabone33

· #40 · May 31, 2016

BeemerMikeTX said:
Maybe, but there is a LONG list of oils in the VW Technical Bulletin that VW says meets their 507 00 spec. All of them 5W-30.

But some of them don't list it on the bottle or anywhere on the website for US oils - in many cases you may have to go to an overseas website and data sheet to find the certification, which to me seems to indicate that the North America version may be different.

Motor oils generally aren't made in one place and then shipped all over the world - they're made from a supply that's closer to the production facility, and there are production facilities all over the world, so the same kind of oil made for sale in one location might be slightly different chemically than oil made somewhere else that was certified by VW, even if they're named the same. Pennzoil Platinum, for example, lists separate Euro and US data sheets. The base Platinum Euro version meets 502 and 505 spec, but the US does not list that spec.

In many cases the specific characteristics may be identical even if made in different factories (or at least equally compliant), but VW certified the oil from the production facility associated with just one market - e.g., the Euro market - and therefore the US version might be OK but wasn't tested or certified. Or it might not be compliant.

I don't think I'll take that chance - I'll just get the Castrol from the dealer.

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