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Travel Trailer (Caravan) dealer said "No" to Touareg and trailer combination

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14K views 58 replies 20 participants last post by  WolverineFW  
#1 ·
Hi there, I own a 2017 V6 Treg, Wolfsburg edition and I wanted to buy a Winnebago 2108 travel trailer (caravan). This trailer has a dry weight of 3,900 lb and a hitch weight of 410 lb. To the hitch weight must be added 40 lb for two propane tanks, 29 lb for a battery, 10 lb for a sway control bar and 6 lb for the hitch with coupling. This adds up to 495 lb, which leaves 121 lb for any cargo placed in the front storage compartment of the trailer. The maximum hitch weight for the 2017 Treg is 616 lb.

The trailer dealer said that without a weight distribution hitch (WDH), which is a No, No, according to VW, I would be too close to the limit for him to sell me the trailer. He said that with such a hitch loading I would wear out the rear tires on the Treg very quickly and could easily have serious other damage to the frame and transmission. He claimed to have towed a similar travel trailer with a 3/4 ton pick-up, without a WDH and experienced those problems. He suggested that I look at tear-drop trailers. However, these are too small to meet my requirements.

So, fellow Forum members what is your experience and recommendations?
 
#2 ·
Double edged sword here.

The seller has ethics, as he could just sell you something that he was 100% sure in his heart was not going to work out for you. He is passing up on easy profit.

On the other hand, you are sure it will work.

Most of use are still confused over what issue VW has with the WDH.

Only things I can think of is (1) get some good feedback from people who have towed this setup and (2) try to find out which exact 3/4 truck he had problem with. Not all trucks are created tow equal. Perhaps he picked a bad 3/4 truck for this trailer.

Other than that, be sure you have the proper load rated tires and be sure that you use OEM or OEM quality brakes. If a daily commuter wants to put on ceramic on their touareg, sure. If a tow person wants to do the same... no way. Stick with the high carbon brakes and the high friction brake pads when you are towing.

 
#12 ·
Double edged sword here.

The seller has ethics, as he could just sell you something that he was 100% sure in his heart was not going to work out for you. He is passing up on easy profit.

On the other hand, you are sure it will work.

Most of use are still confused over what issue VW has with the WDH.

Only things I can think of is (1) get some good feedback from people who have towed this setup and (2) try to find out which exact 3/4 truck he had problem with. Not all trucks are created tow equal. Perhaps he picked a bad 3/4 truck for this trailer.

Other than that, be sure you have the proper load rated tires and be sure that you use OEM or OEM quality brakes. If a daily commuter wants to put on ceramic on their touareg, sure. If a tow person wants to do the same... no way. Stick with the high carbon brakes and the high friction brake pads when you are towing.

Thanks for the help. The links are useful.
 
#4 ·
The guys an idiot. People on this site have towed a LOT bigger and heavier than that thing you're looking at.
 
#5 · (Edited)
Get your trailer elsewhere. Use a WD hitch (Blue Ox or an Equalizer) if you approach 500+ pound tongue weight. Don't worry about a trailer that weighs less than 6000-6500 pounds. That particular sales person is not knowledgeable of Touareg capabilities (especially TDI). That sales person is probably one of those guys who thinks that only pickup trucks are worthy tow vehicles.

With that said, any fresh water you tow will change your tongue weight before and after your trip depending on where the fresh tank is in relation to the axles. Also your gray and black tanks will get that fresh water as you use the water, will also change the tongue weight. This becomes somewhat meaningless if you use a campground with a dump station for emptying the holding tanks before departing. And if the campsite has a water supply as well, you will only need minimal fresh water in your tank anyway. You will be using the "city" supply to the camper water system, and none will be added to your fresh tank. Many people only camp this way so water is never an issue during travel.

My toy hauler was customized for me, and the fresh tank (100 gallon capacity) was moved in between the dual axles (this is NOT the usual tank location layout). Fresh water has NO influence on my tongue weight. Only my black tank (furthest forward) and gray tank (right behind the black tank) have an influence on tongue weight if I choose to tow from my site without dumping them (this is typical for me). I use almost exclusively primitive camp sites , with no hookups, I bring all the water I may need for my weekend, and tow it home to a free public dump station at a rest area about 9 miles from home. My tongue weight is 500-ish empty, to 750 if the gray/black tanks (45 gallons each) were ever completely full (never happened yet).
 
#6 ·
Get your trailer elsewhere. Use a WD hitch (Blue Ox or an Equalizer) if you approach 500+ pound tongue weight. Don't worry about a trailer that weighs less than 6000-6500 pounds. That particular sales person is not knowledgeable of Touareg capabilities (especially TDI). That sales person is probably one of those guys who thinks that only pickup trucks are worthy tow vehicles.

Truth. Way back when we bought our 20' 5klb boat, the guy selling it had a big old stinky ass duramax truck. We showed up w/ our little Acura TLX to check the boat out. When we agreed on price, the guy was adamant that "its a heavy boat, make sure you bring a big truck" (not sure if he thought we were going to try the TLX or what...). Well, we showed up w/ the Touareg and he made a snide comment "huh, I dont think this things gonna work this boats gonna throw you all over the place".
I just laughed, shook my head no and told him this boat is a fraction of what the car is rated to pull.

He also couldn't believe it was a turbo-diesel when I told him (not sure where he's been the past 20 years...)
He double-couldn't believe it was a diesel when I kept the car running and had my face stuffed up the tail-pipes (slightly joking..) when connecting the boat and there was absolutely zero stink or smoke etc.
 
#7 ·
He's just trying to sell a WD hitch. I'm not gonna stir-up the WD debate, but Trailer margins must be low.
Any 3/4 ton with a hitch could tow this trailer. ANY 3/4 ton. If he had problems towing this trailer with a 3/4 ton truck, most likely he's a liar. If he's not lying, he's incompetent. If he's neither of the first two, he's more than a couple fries short of a happy meal. The words coming out of his mouth just don't add up to accurate info.
The vehicle manufacture rates the capabilities of the vehicle- they have a vested interest in getting it right to avoid litigation and warranty claims. The Trailer manufacture rates their trailer, and while they're a little looser and you want to check their math, they also have a vested interest in your safety. Then you have this guy, that seems to know more than all Auto and Trailer manufacturers, and just happens to have a WD hitch here for you that will fix everything. OK.
 
#10 ·
He's just trying to sell a WD hitch. I'm not gonna stir-up the WD debate, but Trailer margins must be low.
Any 3/4 ton with a hitch could tow this trailer. ANY 3/4 ton. If he had problems towing this trailer with a 3/4 ton truck, most likely he's a liar. If he's not lying, he's incompetent. If he's neither of the first two, he's more than a couple fries short of a happy meal. The words coming out of his mouth just don't add up to accurate info.
The vehicle manufacture rates the capabilities of the vehicle- they have a vested interest in getting it right to avoid litigation and warranty claims. The Trailer manufacture rates their trailer, and while they're a little looser and you want to check their math, they also have a vested interest in your safety. Then you have this guy, that seems to know more than all Auto and Trailer manufacturers, and just happens to have a WD hitch here for you that will fix everything. OK.
Hi there, makes complete sense; many thanks.
 
#13 ·
Whilst the following site is Australian (and weights are in kg not lbs), the principles are the same
Enter your weights into the table and work it out.
Using a weight Distribution Hitch... That's a lively conversation it seems many people do.
The Touaregs with air suspension may handle the load differently to those with steel springs
 
#14 ·
I’m in Australia, so my experience doesn’t necessarily translate to your context, especially legal restrictions.
But...We have a 2016 V6 Wolfsburg (ie 180kw diesel, airbag suspension) towing a 3.2T (7,050lb) van. We have a factory towbar with max towing capacity of 3.5T (7,700lb) and max towball weight of 615lb. Our manual says NOT to fit WDH, and we don’t need it with the airbag suspension.
It tows really well and we’re very happy.
We’ve towed about 10,000 miles and comfortably cruise at 100km/h (62mph) on most highways and haven’t noticed any extra wear on the tyres.
Your manual should show your tow and vehicle weights. Check your own though, it’s easy to overload either the Gross Vehicle Mass or Gross Combination Mass.
Not all your extra load will go on the towball. You’ll hardly notice a 4,000lb trailer!
 
#15 ·
Hi there, I own a 2017 V6 Treg, Wolfsburg edition and I wanted to buy a Winnebago 2108 travel trailer (caravan). This trailer has a dry weight of 3,900 lb and a hitch weight of 410 lb. To the hitch weight must be added 40 lb for two propane tanks, 29 lb for a battery, 10 lb for a sway control bar and 6 lb for the hitch with coupling. This adds up to 495 lb, which leaves 121 lb for any cargo placed in the front storage compartment of the trailer.
Are you sure he's not under the impression the Toureg has a 5000 lb tow limit? That's what most people think when they see my "mid-sized SUV". They're surprised when I tell them it's rated for 7700 lbs.
The maximum hitch weight for the 2017 Treg is 616 lb.
It's actually 770 lbs. Standard max hitch weight for the U.S. is 10% of the trailer weight, which is 770 lbs. (Actually 771 lbs, since the Treg is rated for 3500 kg, which is 7716 lbs.)

Standard max hitch weight for the EU is 8% of the trailer weight. 7700 * 8% = 616 lbs. That's how VW came up with that number. The person at VW converting the ratings to Imperial for export to the U.S. erroneously used the EU standard for max hitch weight. They've never really corrected it either. In the earlier models, you could ask and they'd give you a new label you could stick on the hitch which specified 770 lbs. But I don't think they're doing that anymore.

Weight distribution is a complicated issue. As a structural engineer, I can see the issue VW is grappling with. They don't use WD in Europe, so the Touareg's design load stresses were calculated without WD. With a simple hitch, the connection between vehicle and trailer is a pivot joint - those cannot transfer torques. That simplifies the load calculations tremendously.

WD converts the vehicle and trailer connection into a solid connection which can transmit torques. You now have three (or more) axles on the ground with a solid connection. That converts the system into what's called a statically indeterminate system, which is much more complicated to calculate the loads and stresses. VW never bothered to model this since WD isn't used in Europe. So they just say don't use it.

So can the Touareg use a WD hitch? Nobody knows. Lots of people have done it, and it seems to work. But until someone using WD with a near-max load trainer has an accident which forces the trailer to pivot against the WD hitch and reports the results here, we really won't know. Maybe the Touareg can take it. Maybe the hitch mount will twist and break.

A WD is designed to transmit torque from the trailer through the tow hitch. The trailer has a long lever arm (from the wheels to the hitch ball). The hitch has a short lever arm (from the ball to the forward-most section of the hitch mount, which is just underneath the bumper). So there's a danger that with this leverage, the trailer with WD could twist the hitch mount. If you search here, there's a mod some people have gotten done. A reinforcing bar is welded from the hitch mount, across the fuel tank, to the frame. This greatly increases the lever arm on on the vehicle side of the tow hitch, and reducing the chance that the WD hitch will twist the hitch mount. If you're unsure but want to use a WD hitch, I'd suggest getting this mod done.
 
#16 ·
Standard max hitch weight for the EU is 8% of the trailer weight. 7700 * 8% = 616 lbs. That's how VW came up with that number. The person at VW converting the ratings to Imperial for export to the U.S. erroneously used the EU standard for max hitch weight. They've never really corrected it either. In the earlier models, you could ask and they'd give you a new label you could stick on the hitch which specified 770 lbs. But I don't think they're doing that anymore.
Correction - the MINIMUM maximum hitch weight for the EU is 4% of trailer weight, so 3500 * 4% = 140 kg (309 lbs).

It's not clear whether Touaregs sold in North America and Australia have extra strengthening to allow higher hitch weights or whether hitch weights are simply higher because of market demand.
 
#18 ·
My trailer build sheet which is the data used in importing and meeting the US regulations states:
Dead Weight max trailer weight - 5000 lbs. max.
Dead Weight max tongue weight - 500 lbs. max.
Weight Distributing Hitch maximum trailer weight - 7700 lbs. max.
Weight Distributing Hitch maximun hitch weight - 1155 lbs. max.
This is an official document to meet US regulations for import or really any vehicle for that matter.
239113
239111
239112
 

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#22 ·
In most states 5K would be well over the unbraked trailer limit. Most are in the 3000 lb range.
In New Jersey for example:
Brakes are required on all wheels for all trailers or semitrailers with a gross weight over 3,000 pounds; provided. The gross weight of any such trailer without brakes shall not exceed 40% of the gross weight of the towing vehicle.
 
#23 ·
@Senecio
In your original post you did the sums.. 616 - (410+40+29+10+6) = 121 remaining capacity for cargo.
What you have not allowed for is the balance effect of the trailer, including water in tanks and any items distributed throughout the trailer.
eg:
  • a % of the total of weights behind the axle is deducted from the ball weight
  • a % of the weight in front of the trailer axle is added to the ball weight
  • load directly over the trailer axle adds very little to the ball weight
  • the total of the load in the trailer cannot exceed the ATM (trailer maximum)
Balance and distribute the load within the trailer to maintain the tow ball load within the required amount.
Also note tow ball weight is the down force on the tow ball only.
the load of the trailer can be 7700lbs
 
#25 ·
Hello Grant, I am aware of how additional weight and its placement can affect the hitch weight, but as I do not know where the water tanks are located, but expect them to be aft of the axles, I disregarded that from my calculations. But you certainly make a good point. Thank you. Senecio
 
#29 ·
If you look on the airstream forum about the WD discussion some clear this up nicely, the WD is illegal in Europe for political and licensing reasons, you have a lower limit to what is towable without their commercial license, this is based on the comments in that forum. Also Audi has cleared some 20+ hitches for the q7 a close cousin of the treg and their manuals state its required to be used.. the Porsche guys go through the same thing.. I felt strongly enough that this is political so I went ahead and put a WD on mine.. just keep an eye on it. If the hitch becomes an issue then adaptation to reduce stress can be made easily.. this isn’t the end of the world if your pragmatic about it, it’s also not the first unibody suv with tow capabilities..
 
#30 ·
There's plenty of mis-information on Airstream sites.

I'm not aware of any political or legal reason why WDHs are illegal in Europe - indeed for many decades the common sway stabilisers used in Europe were also light duty weight distribution hitches until superseded by friction hitch stabilisers. I used a Scott-Halley stabiliser for my first couple of decades of caravanning, it's still in my garage.

Trailers, of the type were considering, can go up to 3,500 kg (7,716 lbs) maximum weight in Europe and can be towed on a regular car licence - what is different is that in Europe, braking of such trailers must be automatic operated by an overrun/surge hitch mechanism, not using any controller on the towing vehicle, unless they're less than 750 kg (1,653 lbs) in which case trailer brakes aren't needed - it's also legislation in Europe that nose weights (tongue weights) can be as low as 4% of the maximum towing weight.

A European Touareg gets a 3,500 kg (7,716 lbs) towing limit with a 140 kg (309 lb) nose/tongue weight limit - whether the rear chassis is strengthened on Australian and North American Touaregs isn't clear but their tongue weight limits are much higher.
 
#32 ·
This is likely due to the location of the euro spec trailers, is trailering en masse is vastly heavier on the avg due to the licensing limits being 10klbs for a commercial style flatbed and much higher for a coach. That was my point in regards to political. We tow heavier, and it makes no sense for vw to build a unibody with a lower strength.. there likely identical cars. That being said your not breaking any laws when you run the WD hitch, it’s your own liability when you do this. But I personally see no issue with it if you drive smart, and keep an eye on your equipment to prevent failure modes. How is this any different than changing tire size or modding brakes or suspension? The liability is still there because you made a modification.
 
#35 ·
Oh that’s very sad d.lapidated

Well said Seafarer28. Yes, my Touareg is on air suspension and so it’s not supposed to use WDH and we don’t.

As he said, many things can affect stability. Many comments suggest the first two culprits are 1) low towball weight and 2) too much weight at the rear of the van.

We had a lot of trouble until we changed both of those. It’s certainly worth weighing everything; Touareg, towball and TT.

Other issues can be low tire pressures, wrong towball height, weight too high, wheel alignment, location of the TT wheels, etc.

You might have seen demo’s like this:

Good luck!
 
#46 ·
I don't believe that for one second the Touareg can handle nearly 50% more tongue weight by utilizing a distribution hitch.
 
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#49 ·
Volkswagen says WDH aren't allowed on the Touareg so how are you quoting an 'official document' @redbarron55
 
#50 ·
A lot of misinformation about what a WDH does. A WDH does not increase your tow rating (hitch or GVWR).

A regular hitch is a ball joint. These transmit forces (forward/back, left/right, up/down), but not torques (twisting moments - yaw, pitch, roll). The whole point of using a ball joint is that it massively simplifies the structural engineering calculations. Something that would normally require finite element analysis turns into something which you can calculate on the back of an envelope using high school physics (free body diagrams).

A WDH modifies the ball joint so that it can transmit torques which pitch the tow vehicle. The springs loading the WDH generate a pitch torque in the tow vehicle, thereby shifting load between the tow vehicle's rear and front axles. This is how a WDH relieves weight from the tow vehicle's rear wheels.

The problem with the Touareg and WDH is that VW only did the structural design calculations for a ball hitch - no torque. Adding a WDH introduces torque to the equation. And since VW never analyzed that scenario, they have absolutely no idea what will happen. So their legal team covers their butts by just saying WDH is not allowed. That way if you use a WDH and it causes an accident or structural failure, they can escape liability by just saying they told you not to do that.

VW doesn't know if a WDH will work. I don't know if it will work. The people using a WDH don't know if it will work. It probably will work. But unless someone knows some VW engineers, can get structural design specs, and run the whole thing through a FEA program, nobody knows for sure if it'll work.

The mod some companies do if you want to make it "WDH safe" weld a bar from the tow hitch assembly to part of the frame in front of the fuel tank. This greatly increases the lever arm for any pitch torques transmitted by the hitch. I don't have exact dimensions, but assuming the hitch assembly is a 5 inch box and the bar they add is 35 inches, that's a 7x increase in resistance to torque. Which pretty much guarantees it'll be safe. But is it necessary? Nobody knows.

Do note that anti-sway mechanisms have a similar problem. They dampen sway by transmitting torques in the yaw direction through the tow hitch. But the big differences here are that (1) the anti-sway torque is zero when the trailer is straight. It's not a constant load; it only applies a load when the trailer is turning left or right. And (2) the part of the hitch frame absorbing this yaw torque spans the entire width of the car (just over 5 ft, so a 2.5 ft lever arm). So the frame is much more resistant to yaw torque.

The other thing to understand is that all these numbers like hitch rating, GCVWR, etc. are simplifications of the actual math needed to figure out exactly what a trailer will do. That's why two trailers with the same weight and hitch weight will behave differently depending on how the mass is distributed (near the ends of the trailer, or right above the trailer wheels). And it's possible to make the trailer unstable while staying within the published ratings. There's a safety margin built into the numbers. But anything you do that's unconventional eats into that safety margin, and increases the risk of a failure.

A particular weakness of the Touareg is its short wheelbase. If you imagine the rear wheels as the pivot of a see-saw, the distance to the front wheels is the leverage the front wheels have to turn the Toureg. The distance to the hitch ball is the leverage the trailer has to turn the Touareg. The short wheelbase means in a sway or jackknife situation, the trailer has an easier time turning the Touareg against the wishes of your steering wheel inputs. For this reason, you should try to avoid towing a really long trailer (which can exert a greater turning force on the Touareg). Note that a lot of WDH have a ball which sits further out from the hitch receiver, exacerbating this weakness.