[Lars_NM]

I just had my car aligned and I'm having some issues with camber, the alignment eccentrics are maxed out on the right side, and at mid position on the left side. The vehicle has never been in an accident, but I do off road it pretty hard and I've hit a lot of rocks with the subframe. I'm thinking the front subframe may have shifted. I have looked at the alignment procedure in the manual, but I don't understand it. Has anyone ever aligned their subframe? what is the procedure and what is it aligned to?

Thanks in advance for any help.

 

[chewblekka]

It’s pretty simple. Say you have too much negative camber on the right, you would shift the subframe to the left. If you have too much positive camber on the right, you would shift the subframe to the right. This assumes your suspension components aren’t damaged.

 

[lachoradkov]

You can look up those -> SUBFRAME CENTERING SLEEVES - CAYENNE/TOUAREG/Q7

 

[Lars_NM]

I don't think my A-arms are damaged. I just installed a new upper/lower set (Meyle 1160500194HD) and a 25mm upper A-arm spacer lift which prompted the alignment.
I previously had a 20mm strut spacer lift and everything was in spec. I changed to the A-arm mount spacers, and removed the strut spacers because i wanted to improve the A-arm geometry. What I didn't realize was that the A-arm spacers would push the camber out of the spec range. I'm now sitting at +1 degree camber on both front wheels (spec is 0 +/-0.2 degrees), and all other specs are in. The adjusters are full out on left side, and mid position on right.

How much movement is available in the sub frame?
How to the alignment pins work? It looks like it centers the subframe on the threaded hole. Is that correct?
Is the tool needed? It seems if you are trying for center, You could eyeball that.

 

[lachoradkov]

What kind of upper control arm spacers are you using? Why are you using them if you removed the strut spacer lift kit?
I have 1in subframe drop spacer and I am about to order the alignment kit soon. Not sure if it could be used without the spacer, but I think it can... Contact Eurowise to confirm...

 

[Lars_NM]

I'm using this:
GEN 1 - 1" LIFT KIT - CAYENNE/TOUAREG (STEEL SPRING)
The three pucks mount between the body and mount bracket 7L0-412-391-D
I was using a 20mm PU spacer I bought direct from a Russian company that fit between the above mount bracket and the strut. I was able to get the front end aligned in spec with that, but upper A-arm geometry wasn't ideal which is why I changed over to the Eurowise product.
After more analysis, It is clear that the Eurowise kit it pushes the upper A-arm out more than what can be corrected with the eccentric and an adjustable A-arm is required with this product. This isn't disclosed on their product page.
I can make some improvement if I can shift the subframe over to the left and maybe get from +1 to +0.5 degrees camber on both sides.


Do you know anything about how much adjustment is in the subframe?

 

[lachoradkov]

I don’t think the subframe is adjustable…
So with the 20mm spacers and oem upper control arms wasn’t right and you changed to Eurowise 1in (~25mm) spacers and the Eurowise tubular control arms? and they pushed the geometry too much out?

Maybe you need bigger lift kit or upgrade to the Eurowise adjustable upper control arms kit…

 

[chewblekka]

I don’t think the subframe is adjustable…

Yes it is. If you read the link you provided, it says the subframe bushing holes are larger than the bolts, allowing the subframe to be shifted around to adjust camber and caster.

 

[lachoradkov]

I know it can shift, makes some sense for the caster angle, but I just can figure out how it can be used to adjust the camber… you can’t stretch it, only move it left or right and that will affect negatively one of the sides…

 

[Lars_NM]

I know it can shift, makes some sense for the caster angle, but I just can figure out how it can be used to adjust the camber… you can’t stretch it, only move it left or right and that will affect negatively one of the sides…
[/QUOTE

Read my first post. The ecentrics are maxed out on one side and mid position On the other. If the sub frame was centered they would be the same and I would have some more adjustment.

 

[chewblekka]

Read my first post. The ecentrics are maxed out on one side and mid position On the other. If the sub frame was centered they would be the same and I would have some more adjustment.

Exactly.

 

[chewblekka]

but I just can figure out how it can be used to adjust the camber

Let's keep this simple, ELI5-style.

If you shift the third vertices of a standard-form right-biased granular rhombus 15 minutes of ascension to the fourth vertices, you will have achieved a square.

 

[MidnightTouaregV8]

See this post.
Click here

Cheers...

 

[Lars_NM]

unlikely, but a good idea, I'll check my uprights to see if they are bent.

 

[Lars_NM]

Not Bent.
I checked my uprights, both total length and bow, and they are not bent. II did a rough measure of the subframe side to side from the side of the front subframe bushing to the frame rail and I found that the subframe is about 3mm towards the left which agrees with the positions of the eccentrics. I'm at +1.1 degrees positive both sides with the target being 0=/-0.2 degrees. the best I think I can get to is +0.7 degrees with the subframe centered. So 0.5 degrees from spec.

As far as road feel right now at 1.1 degrees is that it feels a little unstable. It tracks straight and doesn't pull but the steering feels too sensitive, and the slightest deviation of the wheel and the car wants to commit to a turn. A little stressful. I wasn't planning on spending another $600 for adjustable A-arms So my thought is to move the subframe and see how it feels at +0.7 degrees.

Moving the subframe: This is going to be tricky. I need to move it ~3mm toward the right, and do a slight twist to account for the difference between the front and back eccentrics to take into account caster differences. I don't think this is something the alignment place can handle but I'll ask. my best idea at this point is to use magnetic bases and dial indicators on three of the bushings, and a magnetic angle gauge on the disk or upright to measure the angle change.
This will be tricky.

anyone have any better ideas? Or know a source for adjustable A-arms.

 

[Brendanm]

There is a guy in Australia who sells the subframe centering spacers. Wallace offroad.

 

[casioqv]

After more analysis, It is clear that the Eurowise kit it pushes the upper A-arm out more than what can be corrected with the eccentric and an adjustable A-arm is required with this product.

I have the Eurowise 2.5" kit, with the 0.5" subframe drop on my '09 and was able to get it fully aligned to spec.

It really sounds to me like your subframe just got shifted off center, probably from a hard impact offroad. I'd probably do centering pins like others suggested if I were you- I wish I had thought to buy some for mine.

 

[Lars_NM]

I have the Eurowise 2.5" kit, with the 0.5" subframe drop on my '09 and was able to get it fully aligned to spec.

It really sounds to me like your subframe just got shifted off center, probably from a hard impact offroad. I'd probably do centering pins like others suggested if I were you- I wish I had thought to buy some for mine.

I'm glad you got your car into spec. the two lifts are completely different so we are talking apples and oranges. My subframe was pretty much centered.

The lifts are different because of where you put the spacers.
a) The 2.5" lift kit puts the spacers directly on top of the struts and the upper A-arm mount remains in the same position but the A-arm angle changes from ~0 to ~18 degrees droop. This put the wheel in a 0.4 negative camber which is correctable and not that bad if you can't correct it.

b) the 1" lift kit puts the spacers on top of the A-arm mount, the A-arm angle remains unchanged at ~0 degrees horizontal (good), but because the top of the upper A-arm mount is angled at ~28 degrees, the 1" spacers push the A-arm ~12mm outboard. This puts the wheel in a +1 degree positive camber which is not correctable.

 

[Lars_NM]

To center my subframe I used 1/2" PVC plumbing pipe cut to 50mm as spacers. ID is 14mm and OD is 21.5mm. I estimate the alignment accuracy at +/-0.8mm. I can add some sheet metal shims to reduce some of the slop, but this amounts to only 0.08 degrees on the alignment settings so I figure it is good enough and it only cost $1.50.

 

[casioqv]

the 1" lift kit puts the spacers on top of the A-arm mount, the A-arm angle remains unchanged at ~0 degrees horizontal (good), but because the top of the upper A-arm mount is angled at ~28 degrees, the 1" spacers push the A-arm ~12mm outboard. This puts the wheel in a 1 positive camber which is not always correctable.

Interesting... I had assumed it was the same but with a smaller spacer.