[Warren&Jo]

Hi Guys
pretty new here
We have just put a deposit down ion a 23 ft victory off road van . it will weigh about 2800 kg unloaded. We will get it around December - I’m doing research on van battery systems the dexter van sway control system etc.
We have a 2017 Touareg 180kw ( the very last of the 7P release) . I was hoping people here could give advise on setting it up - what wheels tyres etc - would really love to tap into the experience of this forum
thanks
Warren

 

[chewblekka]

Shouldn’t need any sort of sway control with such a short trailer, the factory sway control is very good. I towed a 33’ Airstream that was 6100lbs dry and never had an issue. Stock 20” rims and tires.

 

[seafarer28]

Hi W&J.
It pains me to say this but I think you may have bitten off more than the Touareg can handle with the van that you've ordered. I assume you have done your homework and know the 7P Touareg towing limits especially tow ball, max rear axle capacity and GCM.
It seems that every van manufacturer understates actual van weights. Can you give us the manufacturers published van weights?
You would also know that you should not install a WDS to an air suspension Touareg so you can transfer some weight off the rear axle to the front.

Do you have a plan 'B' should you find after you pay and receive your van that your rig combination fails in one of the maximum weight regulations issued by your appropriate state road authority?

TonyB

 

[meggsy]

Hi Guys
pretty new here
We have just put a deposit down ion a 23 ft victory off road van . it will weigh about 2800 kg unloaded. We will get it around December - I’m doing research on van battery systems the dexter van sway control system etc.
We have a 2017 Touareg 180kw ( the very last of the 7P release) . I was hoping people here could give advise on setting it up - what wheels tyres etc - would really love to tap into the experience of this forum
thanks
Warren

Hi W&J I can only second Tony' comments... in the first instance I would ensure that the data plate actually states the certificated weight from an approved weighing facility and make that a condition of sale.

Next I would be seriously looking at your weights -- IMO --- I feel that a 200Kg safety margin is essential no matter what you drag behind a vehicle, one is only asking for trouble if you are maxing out your weights. Similarly if your Treg has a sunroof you have already lost 100 Kg of your payload and generally yoi can deduct an extra 30+kg from your payload for your towbar - this also adds to your rear axle load say 30 Kg at your bumper location will add roughly 45 Kg to your rear axle load.
This is an Australian facebook page with a wealth of general towing advice and it has a couple of good spreadsheets in the files section that allows one to work out their van and tug weights Australian Caravan & Towing | Facebook

I am not trying to be condescending in my reply and please accept my apologies if I do - but van and vehicle weights are a safety critical subject for all road users.

 

[Warren&Jo]

Hi Guys
my understanding is as follows
the kerb weight of the 7P is 2153 ( with a 75kg driver and 90 percent fuel load ( from your car manual
it does have a sunroof which equates to an extra 100kg and tow bar 45 kg
so that gives an unloaded mass of 2298
the manual says the Touareg GVM is 2865 so that leave 567kg to load
with a tow ball weight of 280kg that leave 287 to load - wifey 65 kg and 100kg of other items
that should mean I’m under the GVM by 122
kg ?
the manual says the max gross combination weight is 6395 Kg so at by my reading the car at max GVm is rated to tow the 3500Kg
with the van we were told it would tare 2800 we are currently looking to indenting what we could pull out of it - do we need an oven do we need a diesel heater - how much will I save if we go lithium - so I was thinking the van would likely come in at 2700 unladen and would be around 3200-3300 loaded
I am not we’d to the van and we can down size and whilst I love the Touareg I’m not we’d to it either and could get a 200 series
so from the above responses and my above figures it would appear to me that we would be to heavy for comfort
i Welcome the feedback , that’s why I posted to get opinion from those more experienced
could I ask for advise as to what forum members would recomend as the maximum weight of a van that could be safely towed by the Touareg ? If possible unloaded and a theoretical loaded weight

Oh and Ian I did not see either comment as condescending - in both instance the comments made are designed and aimed at helping me

thanks
Warren

 

[meggsy]

Hi Guys
my understanding is as follows
the kerb weight of the 7P is 2153 ( with a 75kg driver and 90 percent fuel load ( from your car manual
it does have a sunroof which equates to an extra 100kg and tow bar 45 kg
so that gives an unloaded mass of 2298
the manual says the Touareg GVM is 2865 so that leave 567kg to load
with a tow ball weight of 280kg that leave 287 to load - wifey 65 kg and 100kg of other items
that should mean I’m under the GVM by 122
kg ?
the manual says the max gross combination weight is 6395 Kg so at by my reading the car at max GVm is rated to tow the 3500Kg
with the van we were told it would tare 2800 we are currently looking to indenting what we could pull out of it - do we need an oven do we need a diesel heater - how much will I save if we go lithium - so I was thinking the van would likely come in at 2700 unladen and would be around 3200-3300 loaded
I am not we’d to the van and we can down size and whilst I love the Touareg I’m not we’d to it either and could get a 200 series
so from the above responses and my above figures it would appear to me that we would be to heavy for comfort
i Welcome the feedback , that’s why I posted to get opinion from those more experienced
could I ask for advise as to what forum members would recomend as the maximum weight of a van that could be safely towed by the Touareg ? If possible unloaded and a theoretical loaded weight

Oh and Ian I did not see either comment as condescending - in both instance the comments made are designed and aimed at helping me

thanks
Warren

Hi Warren have you looked at this Facebook[0]=AZXEzLgxrUnNA__XkER2q28sVp2vY0Cl7AJaBHdtk51FSLXbQeo3nHU0EKYqMVN0GzR_AiZ-RmEUb3l6Wf0ltkUbk3rVd5gtxiI8jcMbBxZGjL2tWtgXCD-oi362MjBzpXxl8712o1d0ysMzNfV1n7VB&__tn=H-R and thanks cheers Ian

 

[Warren&Jo]

Hi Warren have you looked at this Facebook[0]=AZXEzLgxrUnNA__XkER2q28sVp2vY0Cl7AJaBHdtk51FSLXbQeo3nHU0EKYqMVN0GzR_AiZ-RmEUb3l6Wf0ltkUbk3rVd5gtxiI8jcMbBxZGjL2tWtgXCD-oi362MjBzpXxl8712o1d0ysMzNfV1n7VB&__tn=H-R and thanks cheers Ian

Ian when I try the link it tell me I have insufficent permission to open it

 

[TimWhit]

You ask for tips, so here goes. Get a smaller lighter van; buy some (5) 2nd. hand 17 in" rims and fit good light truck tyres to them; don't bother with getting the rear view camera on the van to view on the inbuilt screen, drop another screen in the space above it, get some tyre pressure monitors and do not forget to lower your tyre pressures when you hit the dirt.
Enjoy it all.

 

[rgh0]

If your Treg does not have the VW trailer control module then get one fitted. You should not need a WDH if you have air suspension

If planning to go off made highways get some decent all terrain tyres which may require dropping down a wheel size or two to get a good sidewall height. Get a full sized spare also. Make sure the size you pick is commonly available across Australia so your not stuck waiting for 2 weeks for a tyres to be delivered

Otherwise you will need to load the Treg and Van carefully to meet the weight requirements which should be possible to do unless you want to pack the kitchen sink. Keep a list of Treg competent repairers handy. Carry critical spares that may not be readily available such as belts and filters

cheers
Rohan

 

[meggsy]

Hi Warren have you looked at this Facebook[0]=AZXEzLgxrUnNA__XkER2q28sVp2vY0Cl7AJaBHdtk51FSLXbQeo3nHU0EKYqMVN0GzR_AiZ-RmEUb3l6Wf0ltkUbk3rVd5gtxiI8jcMbBxZGjL2tWtgXCD-oi362MjBzpXxl8712o1d0ysMzNfV1n7VB&__tn=H-R and thanks cheers Ian

Can I email you a copy it's an excel spreadsheet

 

[Steve_L]

Can I email you a copy it's an excel spreadsheet

what spreadsheet is it Ian?

 

[Wolfy]

@Warren&Jo
Tow ball weight is probably the biggest variable, the hardest to pin the manufacturer/dealer down on and probably the most significant for Touaregs. Were you assuming 280kg based on the advertised van specs? If it's the van specs, that will be nearly always be at tare for a basic spec van. Any options fitted, water carried, toolboxes or blke racks on the A frame, gas in gas bottles, fancy hitches and whatever you load will change it - usually for the worse. For me it would be the ball weight of your van that is the potential deal breaker, not the ATM. And without mods, a 200 series is also surprisingly limited

I appreciate that the 'common wisdom' is that there should be 10% of the trailer mass on the ball. That is very much an Australian 'thing' that is hard to make compatible with wheelbase European vehicles which are expected to tow at 5-7% ball weights. However there are Australian manufacturers designing vans at significantly lower tare ball weights than 10%, giving realistic/manageable loaded ball weights and playing to the advantages of the Touareg of having generous ATM and GCM, outstanding power and torque to weight, and short towball overhang to wheelbase ratio. New Age, Roadstar, Kokoda are just a few examples.

I'm very focussed on ball weight due to my 2021 CR limit of 240kg (perhaps 260kg in a more recent supplement issue) and the manual rear axle weight limit, as well as dealing with an inherited 1900kg van with a compliance plate that says 206kg max ball weight, but to stay below that requires 1 gas bottle only, rear water tank full and front tank empty. My point is there is some really crappy caravan. engineering out there and to avoid it takes a lot of research and analysis, and many dealers from the shopping I've done will focus only on the headline published max trailer mass and brush off any other concerns.

Good luck with the search!

 

[meggsy]

what spreadsheet is it Ian?

I have copied a section of it it sets out some calculations for a range of SUV's one may actually have to join the page to get access to the files - ‪Facebook‬

Enter your required ATM here:3000	2200
Enter ball weight percentage of ATM here: 10	10%	Touareg 7P series, 180TDI, sunroof	Touareg 7P series, 180TDI, no sunroof
Result: Payload remaining after ball weight added		266	366
Tare (kg): the actual weight of the empty vehicle with 10ltr fuel		2159	2159
PAYLOAD: maximum payload specified by the manufacturer		626	626
Kerb weight (TARE + full tank of fuel)		2234	2234
GVM (kg): Gross Vehicle Mass, or the maximum allowable weight supported on the car wheels		2860	2860
Max front axle load		1370	1370
Max rear axle load		1520	1520
GCM (kg): Gross Combined Mass, or if not specified, the published maximum allowable GVM + ATM - ball (ball in the GVM)		6415	6415
ATM (kg): Manufacturer rated		3500	3500
Ball rating (kg) Allowable Drawbar Weight (kg): The maximum allowable downforce on the towball or drawbar		280	280
OTHER PAYLOAD items such as OPTIONS not included in TARE:		Max roof load likley to be ZERO due to sunroof, space saver spare is no good for towing	Max roof load 100kg, space saver spare is no good for towing
Payload: Sunroof		100	0
Payload: Fuel (full tank noting TARE will include 10ltr fuel only)		0	0
Payload: Outboard motor if carrying inside the vehicle		0	0
Payload: Full size spare tyre (for space saver equiped vehicles - space saver not legal when towing)		40	40
Check manufacturer numbers
Stated ATM compared with stated GCM
So calculated GCM (GVM + ATM - BALL) is:		6080	6080
This is OK?		TRUE	TRUE
Margin provided		335	335
Maximum ATM allowable (ATM = GTM+BALL, GTM = GCM-GVM, ATM = GCM-GVM+BALL) but not exceeding manuf. Specs		3500	3500
Your detail:
ATM(kg): your trailer weight axle plus ball load		2200	2200
Actual Drawbar Weight (kg): typically 10% of the axle loading (GTM)		220	220
GTM (kg): Actual trailer weight (kg) or axle load or what your trailer (and boat) actually weighs on the axle, including everything on or in it		1980	1980
Total Payload (kg): Everything that is not car and trailer, such as driver, passengers, fuel, sunroof, luggage, dogs and everything else not in the TARE		140	40
Errors if any in YOUR ATM detail shown here -->
1. Can you tow the trailer
The trailer ATM is within the car spec (allowance = GCM-GVM+BALL)		TRUE	TRUE
Allowance is (using "checked" ATM)		3500	3500
The car will support the ball loading (is Ball<=MaxBall)		TRUE	TRUE
kg extra margin on the ball		60	60
The car and trailer combined weight is under the car rated GCM (is ATM+Tare+Payload<=GCM)		TRUE	TRUE
GCM margin (kg) - Note: this is not payload, there are other factors to consider		1916	2016
2. How much payload in the car after trailer connected if you CAN tow the trailer
PAYLOAD - calculated from GVM less TARE if not specified		486	586
Payload possible after ball weight added		266	366
ONE PASSENGER FRONT SEAT Remaining payload possible ON REAR AXLE after ball weight ADDED		176	276
TWO PASSENGER FRONT SEATS remaining payload possible ON REAR AXLE after ball weight added		86	186
The following is experimental
Estimate payloads based on axle ratings
TARE		2159​	2159​
PAYLOAD		626​	626​
KERB		2234​	2234​
GVM		2860​	2860​
Tow ball load (user load not max load)		220​	220​
Max front axle load		1370​	1370​
Max rear axle load		1520​	1520​
Apportion Kerb mass to axles
- Front axle Kerb load		1059​	1059​
- Rear axle Kerb load		1175​	1175​
Tow ball load apportioned to axles via WDH
- Front axle		104​	104​
- Rear axle		116​	116​
Kerb plus ball load
- Front axle		1163​	1163​
- Rear axle		1291​	1291​
Front seat passenger payload possible with WDH		207​	207​
Luggage payload possible with WDH		229​	229​
Tow ball load apportioned to axles no WDH
- Front axle		0​	0​
- Rear axle		220​	220​
Kerb plus ball load
- Front axle		1059​	1059​
- Rear axle		1395​	1395​
Front seat passenger payload possible no WDH		311​	311​
Luggage payload possible no WDH		125​	125​

 

[Warren&Jo]

Thanks Ian I have asked to join once accepted I’ll access the spreadsheet

 

[TimWhit]

Besides the tow bar and module, you will need a brake controller installed, and it's a good idea to have a CB installed at the same time. The factory plug is a flat 7 pin, and you will need a flat 12 pin plus an anderson plug for the breakaway charge, van fridge and other stuff, not counting the video feed. Find a good auto electrician. Also a roof rack for the full sized spare unless you can jam it inside.

 

[Warren&Jo]

Besides the tow bar and module, you will need a brake controller installed, and it's a good idea to have a CB installed at the same time. The factory plug is a flat 7 pin, and you will need a flat 12 pin plus an anderson plug for the breakaway charge, van fridge and other stuff, not counting the video feed. Find a good auto electrician. Also a roof rack for the full sized spare unless you can jam it inside.

Tim I have arranged to have a car spare mounted under the van

 

[meggsy]

@Warren&Jo
Tow ball weight is probably the biggest variable and the hardest to pin the manufacturer/dealer down on. Were you assuming 280kg based on the advertised van specs? If it's the van specs, that will be nearly always be at tare for a basic spec van. Any options fitted, water carried, toolboxes or blke racks on the A frame, gas in gas bottles, fancy hitches and whatever you load will change it - usually for the worse. For me it would be the ball weight of your van that is the potential deal breaker, not the ATM. And without mods, a 200 series is also surprisingly limited

I appreciate that the 'common wisdom' is that there should be 10% of the trailer mass on the ball. That is very much an Australian 'thing' that is hard to make compatible with wheelbase European vehicles which are expected to tow at 5-7% ball weights. However there are Australian manufacturers designing vans at significantly lower tare ball weights than 10%, giving realistic/manageable loaded ball weights and playing to the advantages of the Touareg of having generous ATM and GCM, outstanding power and torque to weight, and short towball overhang to wheelbase ratio. New Age, Roadstar, Kokoda are just a few examples.

I'm very focussed on ball weight due to my 2021 CR limit of 240kg (perhaps 260kg in a more recent supplement issue) and the manual rear axle weight limit, as well as dealing with an inherited 1900kg van with a compliance plate that says 206kg max ball weight, but to stay below that requires 1 gas bottle only, rear water tank full and front tank empty. My point is there is some really crappy caravan. engineering out there and to avoid it takes a lot of research and analysis, and many dealers from the shopping I've done will focus only on the headline published max trailer mass and brush off any other concerns.

Good luck with the search!

Hi Wolfy its so nice to see someone actually identify the "short towball overhang to wheelbase ratio" its a critical measurement that is often overlooked saw a Navara twin cab with an extralong tray on the other day the tow ball extension must have been close to 3/4 of a meter from the original tow ball position I bet his RAL was actually groaning under the load.

 

[Wolfy]

Hi Wolfy its so nice to see someone actually identify the "short towball overhang to wheelbase ratio" its a critical measurement that is often overlooked saw a Navara twin cab with an extralong tray on the other day the tow ball extension must have been close to 3/4 of a meter from the original tow ball position I bet his RAL was actually groaning under the load.

If anyone is wondering what Meggsy and I are going on about, here's some numbers for the CR that might help explain.
Wheelbase is 2899mm (210 TDi)
From the towing a trailer section of the owners manual, the spec position for the towball, which I assume is achieved by the factory/Westphalia option, is 1119mm behind the rear axle. That's the overhang, and the ratio is 0.386 of wheelbase.
Load on the towball is like a seesaw where the pivot is between the axles and any weight on the towball magnifies the weight on the rear axle by ball weight times (1+ the overhang ratio) due to the longer lever arm the towball position has, and reduces the weight on the front axle by the ball weight times overhang ratio.
So for a CR with a ball weight of 100kg, vehicle mass increases by 100kg, rear axle load increases by 138.6kg and front axle load reduces by 38.6kg. At the limit in the MY21 towing supplement of 240kg, it's 332.64kg extra on the rear axle and 92.64kg less on the front.

For Meggsy's extra long tray Navara, assuming 3100mm wheelbase and 2000mm overhang, the ratio is scary at 0.645 so the same 240kg ball weight would be putting some 394kg extra on the rear axle.

As an aside not relevant to air suspension Touaregs just the extra weight and overhang of a WDH makes things worse before they help. Using the Touareg overhang ratio and 240kg ball weight, a 10kg WDH that moves the ball just 150mm further from the axle adds 10kg to GVM, and near an extra 28kg to the rear axle, before the bars are tensioned. So the WDH has to transfer 28kg off the rear axle just to not make load distribution worse! And the longer overhang caused by the WDH increases the yawing (swaying) leverage the trailer has on the tug. Not surprising the manual says no WDH.

 

[BigBoy50]

Hi Guys
pretty new here
We have just put a deposit down ion a 23 ft victory off road van . it will weigh about 2800 kg unloaded. We will get it around December - I’m doing research on van battery systems the dexter van sway control system etc.
We have a 2017 Touareg 180kw ( the very last of the 7P release) . I was hoping people here could give advise on setting it up - what wheels tyres etc - would really love to tap into the experience of this forum
thanks
Warren

I have been towing first s 21’Jayco Silverline Outback and now a 24’ of the same, with a 2016 R-line, covering close to 100,000 kms in the best and worst of Aus conditions. Similar weights to those you contemplate. No sway control required. Initially we ran on 21” wheels but this was not successful in outback areas. Switched to 18” wheels with Coopers AT rubber. A great combination and a lot easier to get replacement rubber if needed. Whatever you do, don’t swap a Touareg for a Toyota. The Touareg is a fantastic tow vehicle with fabulous fuel economy

 

[Harrymcn]

Great discussion and put my mind to rest. Bought a 21 Treg last month and will get a new Sunseeker Mirage Sport next month. It is 18’6 and a lighter van. I was lucky enough to find someone with the same car and van on FB and was able to share their documentation and experience which made it a lot easier for a complete novice. Also discovered that the solid car spare will need to go on the front of the van not on the rear as I expected, due to ball weight.