[Mafuta]

Following yet another need to take it in for a check due to engine light (on my 2008 V6TDI now at 250,000km), my german mechanic has alerted me to signs of 'black death' weeping from the engine block (sounds like some sort of diesel injector symptom).


Of the multitude issues (as well portrayed throughout this forum) that I have molloycoddled the Treg through all these years, first Ive heard of this one.


He suggests a used ~100,000km replacement motor (~A$9k fitted) may be a better option at this juncture than an expensive fix (unquantifiable until it gets stripped) due to the inevitable demise of the motor - I guess the black death.....


I appreciate these things can sometimes be over dramatized, however before giving up on the Treg would really appreciate forum technical advice. Is this a known and quantifiable issue that can save the motor, or is it truly inevitable?


Cheers

 

[dellc]

never heard the term 'Black Death.' sounds like a vague description- especially when someone is asking you to spend $9k. what was the code from the check engine light?

have 230kms on my 09tdi so hope black death is not lurking in its future.

 

[noobytoogy]

WTF is "black death"?

That is not a technical term and is nowhere near any sensible discussion as to why you might need a new engine.

What, EXACTLY, are the symptoms?

If you don't know then find another mechanic who can give you a WRITTEN explanation of what's wrong, if anything, with your car and post it on here.

 

[alfissimo]

Following yet another need to take it in for a check due to engine light (on my 2008 V6TDI now at 250,000km), my german mechanic has alerted me to signs of 'black death' weeping from the engine block (sounds like some sort of diesel injector symptom).


Of the multitude issues (as well portrayed throughout this forum) that I have molloycoddled the Treg through all these years, first Ive heard of this one.


He suggests a used ~100,000km replacement motor (~A$9k fitted) may be a better option at this juncture than an expensive fix (unquantifiable until it gets stripped) due to the inevitable demise of the motor - I guess the black death.....


I appreciate these things can sometimes be over dramatized, however before giving up on the Treg would really appreciate forum technical advice. Is this a known and quantifiable issue that can save the motor, or is it truly inevitable?


Cheers

Two types, one is Black death in A/C compressors which develops in the compressor and kills the whole system.

Your problem:

Leaking injector seals. Uncombusted diesel and exhaust are pushed back past the injector seal an up the injector shaft during the compression and exhaust cycles of the engine. This then fuses under heat to form a coal like substance that will fill the cavity between the rocker cover and the plastic "lid" if left untreated.

First off, do you experience any of these issues?

Poor Starting, Non Starting-High Fuel Consumption, Low Power, White Smokey Exhaust, Black Smokey Exhaust or a Smokey Engine Bay.Engine Starting and cutting out, Uneven engine idle or running, Incorrect fitting of replacement injectors and Seized Injectors.

Common faults when injectors not replaced or poor quality renovated units used.
We replace the damaged units with high quality reconditioned units, even when seized without removing the cylinder head.

You need to find a specialist to take care of this. No need for a new engine. They clean the crap off first (de carbonizer or oven cleaner works well) then remove the injectors... ONE at a time... clean the injector... cut a new seat and re-thread the hole (note removal and re-seating use special tools.... removal tools grip inside and outside of injector at same time, re-seating / re-threading tools go into the hole and stop the crap getting into the bore).... then a new copper washer is fitted and reassembled......believe it or not its purely down to a thin copper washer getting compressed too much.

You might want to see of a MB mechanic can do it as they see it a lot. Try a dealer, independent or Sprinter mechanic.

No need to get a new motor you just need to find a mechanic who knows what's up.

I also think if it's not really causing an issue leave it alone, or change the seals and see what happens. I am not sure anything is wrong at all.

https://dcsbristol.co.uk/beware-diesel-black-death/

 

[Mafuta]

Much appreciate the response gents


Alfissimo that makes much better technical sense and valuable advice thanks, repairing by a technical specialist is the go. There is the small matter of a coolant leak from an unidentified area on the engine block someplace I forgot to mention - hopefully only a gasket...


I've attached a pic I was sent showing the tar like material for others on the forum to see


will get back once the final bill for this exercise is settled for future ref of forum members

 

[alfissimo]

Remove the engine cover and see if it has gotten hot and melted the black foam or plastic.

If so, keep the engine cover off. Get the injectors replaces, everything cleaned up and maybe a reseat for each injector bore hole. Coolant leak could be a seal. Hows the oil? Have you checked it for coolant?

>
First off, do you experience any of these issues?

Poor Starting, Non Starting-High Fuel Consumption, Low Power, White Smokey Exhaust, Black Smokey Exhaust or a Smokey Engine Bay.Engine Starting and cutting out, Uneven engine idle or running, Incorrect fitting of replacement injectors and Seized Injectors.

 

[unkydunky]

I have just been through a similar experience with my Treg @ 230,000km. First noticed a fairly loud ticking noise at idle accompanied by a smell of diesel under the hood.

Had it checked out immediately, and turned out to be a blown seal on injector #1. Mechanic pointed out the small accumulation of black 'goo' (diesel gunk) which is the first stage of 'black death'.

Luckily I caught this issue early, before any VCDS codes were thrown. $30 seal plus 1hr labour to repair - all good now.

 

[dragline1570]

I have been wondering when this issue would be raised on here.

I have recently replaced a full setof 6 injector seals in a 2012 T3 180 tdi and a set of 3 seals (RHS bank) on an 2008 Audi Q7 with the CASA Eng.
At least 2 of the injectors (1 on each bank)was directly leaking via the relief drilling in the head that vents next to the exhaust manifold on the T3.
The compression doesn't get inside the engine or the rocker cover the smart VW engineers have drilled relief vents for the uncontained compression.
The Q7 only had 1/2 of the copper the copper seal left and was leaking very badly (sounded like a very bad exhaust leak. You can see the black residue on the white engine bay in the photos.
This had also damaged the seat in the head and as I told the owner not sure how long that will last.
Over all a fairly easy job to replace the sealsjust needed to make up some little tools to be able to clean/polish the seat inthe head really well of all the carbon build-up.
Looking at the photos you can see the injector mounting differences from a T2 to a T3 engine, and how a new seal looks compared to a failed seal.
Yes the black tar residue is a dead giveaway (black death) but overall if caught early not a big issue.


Also of note the T3 engine was running rough and when I looked at the injector deviations a few of the injectors were well over the 1.00 for injector compensation (up to say 4.5)
This is the ECU trying to make a smooth idle even though the engine has lost compression on some cylinders.
After repair it still ran rough but as you drive it and monitor the injector deviations the ECU the slowly corrects them back to below 1.00 on all and the engine runs smooth.
Wow that is smart.


regards
Drag

 

[ActuallyStark]

Dealing with the same thing on a '12 Q7 TDi.
I've replaced the copper seals once already, but did not clean the injector "home" in the head. I have the issue again within 5,000 miles.
I purchased an injector seat cleaning kit to shine up the seats. As I went to Audi to buy new copper seals, they tell me that the "tension plates" that hold the injectors in place are a "wear item" and recommend replacing them as well.
I'm of 2 minds here. Part of me thinks that's basically BS because they're still pretty stiff and I've got to shove pretty hard to get the nuts started, so SURELY they're ok... But then again, it is a 230k mile motor, and there is a lot of pressure in the cyl for combustion....
I really don't want to spend $90 if I don't have to... anyone have any thoughts or experience in this?

 

[dragline1570]

Dealing with the same thing on a '12 Q7 TDi.
I've replaced the copper seals once already, but did not clean the injector "home" in the head. I have the issue again within 5,000 miles.
I purchased an injector seat cleaning kit to shine up the seats. As I went to Audi to buy new copper seals, they tell me that the "tension plates" that hold the injectors in place are a "wear item" and recommend replacing them as well.
I'm of 2 minds here. Part of me thinks that's basically BS because they're still pretty stiff and I've got to shove pretty hard to get the nuts started, so SURELY they're ok... But then again, it is a 230k mile motor, and there is a lot of pressure in the cyl for combustion....
I really don't want to spend $90 if I don't have to... anyone have any thoughts or experience in this?

Are you talking the plate/clamp to hold the injector down as a 2 bolt unit or a single bolt unit.
If it is the 2 bolt unit maybe at a pinch they should be replaced (i wouldn't )
Or the single bolt clamp if so not a chance in hell should that need to be replaced

regards
Drag

 

[ActuallyStark]

Are you talking the plate/clamp to hold the injector down as a 2 bolt unit or a single bolt unit.
If it is the 2 bolt unit maybe at a pinch they should be replaced (i wouldn't )
Or the single bolt clamp if so not a chance in hell should that need to be replaced

regards
Drag

On the 3.0TDi it's a 2-bolt

 

[Treviso]

I went through this with two BMW X5 Diesels...I really don't want to go through this with my 2016 TDI Touareg.

 

[dragline1570]

I went through this with two BMW X5 Diesels...I really don't want to go through this with my 2016 TDI Touareg.

Overall it is a pretty simple job to reseal the injectors.
Just the cleaning of the seat in the head needs to be done well

Regards
Drag

 

[ActuallyStark]

Overall it is a pretty simple job to reseal the injectors.
Just the cleaning of the seat in the head needs to be done well

Regards
Drag

That's what I'm shooting for. Bought a pretty complete seat cleaning kit, and seals only.
I can't be convinced that that tension plate has lost that much spring.
This will be the 3rd time I've done the seals, but the first that I've cleaned the seats. (First was a learning experience, second was for valve cover gaskets). I've got it down to about 90 minutes now

 

[Markdon]

Currently doing the injector seals, valve cover gaskets also as there was a small leak. sent injectors out to be tested at same time, awaiting result. Reason for doing: black tar like substance and a ticking noise of sorts, I also had a fuel return line blow off and was told by mechanic a leaking injector could be the cause so good reason to do them now, I'm doing it myself as no vw mechanic I'm willing to use is available for next 6 weeks. Brother is a diesel mechanic so got some good help. 180 000k's engine is clean inside