[Lars_NM]

What changes from the tune? Boost, Fuel? I'm not looking for what you think changed. I want to know what exactly changed based on data, not seat of the pants evaluation.

 

[Lars_NM]

Not gonna happen... I tried long ago to get our users to play.... no bites

Looking for a Tuned\Deleted (CNRB) log if anyone wants...

If anyone has a Tuned and\or Deleted CNRB and VCDS, I'd be interested in seeing some values from a log. Let me know if you want to share, and I can help guide you on how to log what I'm after. These are the MVBs I'm looking for IDE00021 - Engine RPM IDE00190 - Charge air pressure: specified...

www.clubtouareg.com

Well you got 10 pages of discussion. That's pretty good. I'll collect that data for you. I have a CATA but I don't think there would be much difference.

I've collected:

Group 1 - Field 0	Group 1 - Field 1	Group 1 - Field 2	Group 1 - Field 3	Group 10 - Field 0	Group 10 - Field 2		Group 15 - Field 1	Group 20 - Field 3	Group 21 - Field 3
Engine Speed - (G28)	Injection Quantity	High Fuel Pressure - (actual)	Coolant - Temperature (G62)	Mass Air Flow - (actual)	Boost Pressure - (actual)	Boost Pressure - (actual)	Engine Torque - (actual)	High Fuel Pressure - Control Valve	Quantity Measuring - Control Valve
/min	mg/str	bar	°C	mg/str	mbar	PSI	Nm	%	%	Air/Fuel Ratio

PSI and Air/Fuel Ratio are calculated. Have you changed your thoughts on what you want collected since your original post?

I'm still collecting and validating data. At this point nothing really stands out as to what the Malone tune does. Maximum boost (24psi), and fuel (73mg/str), and pressure (1960bar) seem unchanged. I have only looked at max min values at this point with data collected at reg. speed.

 

[Lars_NM]

That's weird... I always thought sensors measured stuff

I'm just used to PSI for boost so that's converted from bar.
I haven't found how to data log the lambda sensor... air fuel ratio is calculated from mg of air and mg of fuel.

My analysis so far

With a stock tune but full emissions delete, max exhaust temp is 856c

in order to attach I renamed it from .csv to .txt

 

[Lars_NM]

I'd be curious to see both EGTs and Boost before and after. I could collect pre-tune CATA data that would align well with Lars's post tune as we have nearly the same vehicle. I've considered doing it but am worried it runs the EGTs too high.

full emissions delete stock tune I am seeing EGT's of 856c

you can keep the tune stock with an emissions delete, or even do a partial delete like delete EGR and SCR but keep DPF. I have not heard anybody doing that but I think it makes complete sense. DPF's do better with high EGT's to burn off the carbon. EGR reduces EGT's (EGR is disabled during regens). I don't think SCR has any negative effect on EGT's or fuel ratio, but with high EGT's you will use allot more DEF. So deleting EGR (which we all hate) helps with the DPF carbon burn off.

 

[Lars_NM]

Hah, I read boost out over OBDII and it peaks at 50psi. I've long suspected the reading I'm seeing was off by some integer multiplier, sounds like probably 2x.

remember you are reading absolute pressure not relative pressure, so it will be 15psi high.

 

[Lars_NM]

When I got my tune, Malone was basically in my backyard. I asked him various things about the tune. He said they don’t change boost, it’s mostly in the fuelling.

I didn't see any change in max boost or max fuel, but they could be changing the fuel delivery curve between min and max which I wouldn't have seen in my simplistic analysis.

 

[Lars_NM]

You make power with fuel, timing and air in a diesel. The end. What exactly are we trying to accomplish with this thread?

I'm trying to understand what Malone has changed in stage 1.

 

[Lars_NM]

100 agree. Heck, most German cars are still coming under boosted from the factory but not the Touareg. They're off map and running warm even stock. There are European options for bigger turbos but not a ton of power to be made, easily, for the 3.0 TDI

especially with the CATA which has a smaller turbo than the gen 2 3.0 TDI.

 

[Lars_NM]

Have you tried, I dunno, asking them directly?

Yes, I submitted a question.

 

[Lars_NM]

Toasty IAT.
I see you also chose to just go ahead with your own parameters instead of matching what I was attempting to collect, even after asking me.....
View attachment 271158



View attachment 271157

I'm still learning this.
Can you explain to me what the IDE numbers mean? how do i find IDE04677? Also what is MVB?

I usually go into Advanced Measurement values and do a search but not all the measurement groups are listed. If I go into the measurement block (08) page and go through all the groups which seem to go from 1-254, I see there is sensor data that isn't in the Advanced measurements block page.

Is there a way i can add all the measurement locations to the Advanced Measurements page?

So I need to know what the group number is that you want since IDE# means nothing to me.


You wanted:
These are the MVBs I'm looking for
IDE00021 - Engine RPM--got it
IDE00190 - Charge air pressure: specified value--can add, not sure what the value is except to flag that the turbo can't meet specified value.
IDE00191 - Charge air pressure: actual value--got it
IDE00348 - Intake air temperature--got it.
IDE00361 - Ambient air pressure--I usually just take the boost pressure value with the engine off for this.
IDE02229 - Exhaust gas temperature sensor 1--got it
IDE04677 - Oxygen sensor 1 bank 1: lambda actual value--this isn't in Advanced measurement value page.
ENG106231 - Ambient temperature --I already get IAT, what additional info does this provide?

 

[Lars_NM]

This shows if your tune is requesting more boost than an OEM setup, or if there's an issue where you're unable to make the requested boost (read charge leak) which could cause a rich condition and elevated EGTs.

Without this, we can't tell how much boost you're running if VCDS is reporting absolute pressure.

Unless you don't have any oxygen sensors, it should exist somewhere.

Knowing ambient temp allows for determining if your intercooling is up to task.... hot ambient temps naturally already result in hot IATs.... but if you have a massive delta, then you're either inducing way too much heat into the boost, or once again, something is wrong with your SMICs, etc.

OK thanks for educating me
1) I'll add Requested Boost I know that is in "Adv Meas. Values"
2) I'll look for ambient pressure. It didn't make sense to me to datalog a constant. I usually datalog some boost values with the engine off or use the boost at idle as atmospheric pressure. I then use that to calculate gauge PSI boost from the absolute bar boost in excel. If I'm sending out the files to other people it make sense to add this as long as it doesn't put me over the 12 parameter datalog limit. I'll search in "Adv. Meas. Values"
3) I have an O2 sensor. That is definitely not in "Adv. Meas. Values" but it is in "Meas. Blocks - 08" I need to get some documentation on these blocks. and figure out how to map them into "Adv. Meas. Values" which is better for datalogging.
4) I thought I was reading the MAF temperature, but it looks like I'm reading the MAP temperature. I'll add MAF temperature if I can find it.

I did do a channel map and uploaded them to RT. I wasn't persistent with RT and I'm not sure what if anything happened. I expected, it would eventual get updated in some release. I'm seeing this is important.

 

[Lars_NM]

Nobody deleted everything but the DPF because...you can't. The DPF would clog of compaction in no time rendering the car inoperable.

I deleted everything but the DPF for a couple months while waiting for my exhaust. It seemed to work OK. The system still monitored DPF back pressure and did regens if needed.

The more efficient the combustion, the less soot is generated. EGR doesn't improve combustion. It is actually designed to do the opposite. It lowers exhaust temperatures to reduce NOX. An EGR delete delete improves combustion and increases exhaust temperature which is good for the DPF. I don't think that SCR has much effect on DPF, but if SCR is still active, it may be modifying the fuel map to reduce EGT and thus NOX? Or it may be just dealing with whatever the NOX is and increases DEF usage up to some allowable limit? That could probably be figured out by seeing if SCR affects EGT. Either way, SCR delete is a neutral or a benefit to DPF operation.

So as long as you are not over fueling the engine, creating a lot of extra Soot, I think that EGR, SCR delete with DPF and Stock tune could work well.

 

[Lars_NM]

From this discussion, I would expect that the Malone tune would increase soot production, and require more frequent regens if done without a DPF delete.

You know that stock is one of the tune options, in addition to stage 1 and stage 2
So you have a stock tune, you delete EGR, and SCR, and soot goes up? Why?

 

[Lars_NM]

I did not know that, I was only talking about tunes that increase power without increasing boost. I've gone back and forth about doing a tune, but if I did it would be just for horsepower, I wouldn't try to delete any emissions equipment.

I think anytime you add more fuel or boost, you are essentially making your engine bigger, but your emissions systems, like your DPF and SCR haven't gotten any bigger, so there could be issues depending on their capacity.

 

[Lars_NM]

Yeah, ultimately I do like going fast, but man is this stock Touareg already fast. I've been driving 70s-80s diesels most of my life, and this thing is mind blowingly fast, but crazy complex. I have zero interest in any changes that might make it less reliable in exchange for even more power, when ultimately towing and off-roading in remote places is my major use of this vehicle.

I'm exactly in the same place. I'm happy with the existing power of the 3.0l CATA. I'm primarily trying to improve reliability. If I can reduce operating cost at the same time then that is a plus.

 

[Lars_NM]

It's all going to come down to the tune. It IS possible to have a killer tune that indeed lowers soot production or at least maintains OEM soot production; but lets face it, Malone or most other OTS tunes are not going to accomplish this. Especially not without logging.

That's why I'm inclined to keep the stock tune with the DPF

 

[Lars_NM]

Here are some stage 1 datalogs
looks like EGT went up ~50c to about 900c. Fuel pressure increase ~10%, More soot than stock when stomping on the accelerator.
third gear lull from ~1600-4200rpm, files have been renamed from .CSV to .TXT to post.

 

[Lars_NM]

Bruh, use the tunezilla site to post easy to look at graphs instead of you fake CSV files... No one is going to spend all this time to download, convert, graph and then evaluate whatever you're posting to reply with anything useful.

Yes, I see they have a neet little program to graph the files. I have been on vacation so haven't had time to play with it.
The posts are for you if you want to do anything with them. I think I answered your question about pre turbo EGT. It goes up about 50c with stage 1. are you concerned about 900c EGT?

DPF delete makes the back of my car, and my tire carrier pretty dirty and I'm not liking that. I'm thinking of going back to a stock tune with DPF provided I can get reliability from it and reasonable idle performance. doing that may require a new or newer DPF.

 

[Lars_NM]

it still blows my mind that people don't realize this is going to happen

You don't know a lot of things until you experience them. This is my first Diesel. If i didn't have a spare tire carrier it wouldn't be so bad. The carrier gets coated pretty badly. many people probably are not bothered.