[PL69]

The thing the more established auto-maker have been way too lazy with electric tech and instead of relesing products ahead of regulations they still have that tendency to evolve there products only when forced to do it...

Tesla even if they shut down will always be rememberd for being the company who was ahead of there time !

 

[m-fine]

I believe the tax breaks to the buyer go away when Tesla hits a certain sales volume.

The other auto companies have not been lazy with electric tech. Most have been doing hydrogen fuel, electric and other alternative fuel research for many years. The reality is that there is still no ground breaking tech in any electric cars. The lithium ion batteries are decades old, and the electric motors even older. The digital management is new and flashy but nothing proprietary or special.

The problem has and continues to be cost. As expensive as they are, Tesla is selling the Model S at a huge loss. Other companies are not competing with them because it would be financialy stupid to do so.

 

[x10003q]

The hate is strong in this thread.

It seems like a lot of you possibly just scrape headlines and then build unsupported theories about Tesla.

It's ok, in a decade you'll have forgotten how much you hate them, when that technology starts to permeate into the rest of the auto world.

Matter of fact, I bet you'll retell the story about how you where the only forward thinking guy on your block that could see how Tesla was making the right moves!

Maybe you should sell this nonsense on the Camry board.

 

[Oregon TDI]

Not sure why anyone would root for Tesla to fail.

 

[BeemerMikeTX]

Not sure why anyone would root for Tesla to fail.

Because it is a huge drain of tax revenues on a dead-end technology.

 

[Oregon TDI]

Because it is a huge drain of tax revenues on a dead-end technology.

Is electric any more dead-end than direct-burning of fossil fuel? At least electric can be sourced from non-fossil-fuel.

Don't get me wrong, I'm old school and I love internal combustion done well. And I REALLY love my TDI. I don't personally want an electric car. But I'm enough of a realist to know when a power source is at the peak or post-peak end of its useful life arc. The full transition may not happen in my lifetime, but soon thereafter. That's the future. Many issues to work out but they will be worked out.

The times they are a changing.

 

[philthyphil]

I actually like what Tesla has been doing. They are building electric cars that appeal to a much larger consumer base than just the greenies. They are building electric cars that automotive enthusiasts can appreciate.

This is why it's appealing to me.
- 2.8s 0-60
- Stylish exterior
- Lots of tech
- Luxurious interior
- OTA updates
- AWD option

Seriously, I think Tesla has done a good job of making cars that are marketable to people who want more than just an eco friendly commuter car. Look at any of the other EVs that are made by the other companies and they're lame. I would never spend my money on those boring cars but if I did have an extra $150k to burn on an around town ride, it could be a Model S P90D with ludacris mode. However I don't, so I won't be getting one any time soon.

 

[Oregon TDI]

I actually like what Tesla has been doing. They are building electric cars that appeal to a much larger consumer base than just the greenies. They are building electric cars that automotive enthusiasts can appreciate. This is why it's appealing to me. - 2.8s 0-60 - Stylish exterior - Lots of tech - Luxurious interior - OTA updates - AWD option Seriously, I think Tesla has done a good job of making cars that are marketable to people who want more than just an eco friendly commuter car. Look at any of the other EVs that are made by the other companies and they're lame. I would never spend my money on those boring cars but if I did have an extra $150k to burn on an around town ride, it could be a Model S P90D with ludacris mode. However I don't, so I won't be getting one any time soon.

I could never drive a Bolt or a LEAF without feeling emasculated. Not so with a Tesla or e-Golf.

 

[m-fine]

I am not rooting for them to fail, and I would love a Model S as an extra commuter car, but I won't spend six figures for one.

 

[N_Jay]

Not sure why anyone would root for Tesla to fail.

Not rooting for it to fail, just sating the obvious that industries propped up by government subsidies don't deserved to be considered "successes"!

 

[BeemerMikeTX]

Is electric any more dead-end than direct-burning of fossil fuel? At least electric can be sourced from non-fossil-fuel.

But we're not giving government subsidies to fossil-fuel burning cars. And Tesla is not really developing "advanced" technology to allow the 100% electric car to be the replacement for the fossil-fuel car. What Tesla is doing is developing/building really cool and stylish electric cars. If some folks in the market want such cars, then they should pay for them, and not the taxpayer.

 

[Oregon TDI]

But we're not giving government subsidies to fossil-fuel burning cars.

My 2009 Jetta TDI was covered by an "alternative fuel" tax credit. I think it was $750 but I could be misremembering. Anyway when 99.5% of passenger cars are fueled by gasoline, almost anything other than gas can be considered "alternative fuel".

Current fossil-fuel tax incentives: http://www.afdc.energy.gov/laws/319

A tax incentive is available for alternative fuel that is sold for use or used as a fuel to operate a motor vehicle. A tax credit in the amount of $0.50 per gallon is available for the following alternative fuels: compressed natural gas (CNG), liquefied natural gas (LNG), liquefied hydrogen, liquefied petroleum gas (propane), P-Series fuel, liquid fuel derived from coal through the Fischer-Tropsch process, and compressed or liquefied gas derived from biomass. For propane, CNG, and LNG sold after December 31, 2015, the tax credit is based on the gasoline gallon equivalent (GGE) or diesel gallon equivalent (DGE). For taxation purposes, one GGE is equal to 5.75 pounds (lbs.) of propane and 5.66 lbs. of CNG. One DGE is equal to 6.06 lbs. of LNG.

EDIT: The tax credit on the 2009 Jetta TDI was $1300

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1023376_vw-jetta-tdi-eligible-for-1300-tax-credit-in-u-s

 

[yuyueyuyue]

Lots of people with 1000 bucks to buy a car that doesn't exist, from a car maker that can't make more that a few thousand cars per year. Believe the hype or there's a sucker born every minute, I'm not sure which slogan is more appropriate here Tesla is just the next iPhone for the minions, if they really wanted an electric car the 100mile range egolf, Nissan leaf and Ford focus are available right now

Neither of these three can do 0-60 in 3 seconds. Granted they cost significantly less to buy than a Model S, but even if people want to spent more on performance, Tesla is the only one to offer now...

 

[yuyueyuyue]

When a company with a wildly successful brand name and positive public image is burning through over a billion dollars per year more than they bring in, it is perfectly reasonable to question the feasibility of their business model. When their top selling product is still 18+ months away, all deposits are 100% refundable, and there are competitors planning to enter the market, it is only reasonable to question if the market interest will turn into actual sales or not. The fact is, Tesla does not have the money to last the next 18 months and deliver the model 3 and supercharger stations they have promised. They need to get investors to bet on their future success or they won't even have a chance to try. Their tech is nothing special, and the more established and experienced auto makers are poised to pounce when market acceptance and profitable price points coincide.

It is following the Silicon Valley business model. Burn investors cash to get marketshare, then profit 10 or 15 years later. I don't know if this is good or bad for a car company though. With that being said, the financials of traditional automakers are not that healthy either...

 

[PL69]

Range from EV cars from all other car makers is a joke when you see what Tesla can do...

 

[m-fine]

It is following the Silicon Valley business model. Burn investors cash to get marketshare, then profit 10 or 15 years later. I don't know if this is good or bad for a car company though. With that being said, the financials of traditional automakers are not that healthy either...

There is a huge difference between software and cars. With software, the cost to make another copy is darn near nil. The cost to make another model S is over $100,000. Who knows what the Model 3 costs will be. With software it is OK to lose a lot of money while building a user base since you can run at very high profit margins once you are established. With cars, the profit margins, if any, are limited.

Musk will not be able to sell $35k-$45K Model 3's at a loss for 10 years and then suddenly start charging $70-$90K for them in hopes of becoming profitable. Tesla will need to get the cost to produce down below the selling price and they will need to keep the selling price low enough to have high volumes. They have no experience as a low cost high volume manufacturer, so I am certainly not betting on their success or longevity just yet.

 

[m-fine]

Range from EV cars from all other car makers is a joke when you see what Tesla can do...

Anyone can put 90 kvh worth of batteries into a car. Tesla can't do anything that the other car companies cannot also do if they choose. The problem is the cost of that range is higher than what consumers are willing to pay right now. Tesla is OK with losing a billion here and there, while "all other car makers" would prefer not to.

 

[BeemerMikeTX]

My 2009 Jetta TDI was covered by an "alternative fuel" tax credit. I think it was $750 but I could be misremembering.

EDIT: The tax credit on the 2009 Jetta TDI was $1300

Yes, we did a lot of stupid ****e after the 2008 collapse and to provide government (taxpayer) support for anything that is labelled "green". We should have learned that the government is not good at picking winners and losers (Solyndra?). However, I can't fault Elon for feeding at the government trough if they slop it up for him.

 

[alhutch]

Bob Lutz thinks the Tesla electric car business model is unworkable economically as a stand-alone company. Pretty much all I need to know.

The same Bob Lutz that did such a bang up job @ GM in the 2000's?

 

[BeemerMikeTX]

The same Bob Lutz that did such a bang up job @ GM in the 2000's?

Yes, that Bob Lutz. The same Bob Lutz who's forgotten more about the auto industry than anybody here will ever know.