Club Touareg Forum banner

1 - 20 of 565 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
600 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
So I see a lot of discussion about trans mods.


I'm also curious about what tunes are available and trans mods for the T3.


I'd like to upgrade my'13 to 330 HP if possible. Has anyone done this if so what can they tell me?


Best options? what to look out for etc...


I'm considering the kermi upgrade but its a little light on power. What I really want I guess is a bigger torque band vs peak HP.


Has anyone tried any of these options?




Also has anyone done a turbo upgrade (more curiosity on my part on this one). I've read about a 400 HP 3.0 TDI in an A5 and A7 but not in the US...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,004 Posts
I'd like to upgrade my'13 to 330 HP if possible.
How did you come up with that output? I think all the tunes I've seen (not that I've looked a whole lot) just crack into the 300s.... anything past that needs snail upgrading and then the injection system become the limiting factor if I'm not mistaken.

There's at least one of two users around here who are running tunes.... I'm not sure I've read of anyone doing dyno runs or seen any such charts to confirm any gains claimed by the tuners....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
206 Posts
You'd be correct turboABA. I've also got a special tune im saving for the first local tuner meet. ;-)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,004 Posts
Disclaimer - My 3L is bone stock!

Now, from what I know about FI and how these things work, and from all the past experiences of modifying and blowing things up, you guys are being vague AF ;)

04_sti
Based on that signature, you have some supporting mods that should put you near the afore-mentioned 300hp output (crank).
I have no idea what that drivetrain loss is on the Touaregs, but I'd sure love to see a dyno chart of both a stock unit, and your modified one.

NTDI
Initially, you say you want more PEAK HP output, but then later on in the same post, you say you want a broader torque curve..... this is a contradiction right there.....
VW engineered this "broad" torque curve given the limitations they had to work with.... (read EPA regulations). A turbo can only spool up so fast, based on various factors, including (but not limited to) airflow, inertia and rotational mass of components. It will be very difficult to gain all the extra HP you're after while trying to maintain the existing early torque & driveability, even if you're willing to throw out any emission compliance. The turbo is already sized on the small size, uses variable vanes, etc to provide the best of both worlds...... without getting into things like dual turbos, compound turbo setups, propane injection or increased displacement, you will not be able to gain much without giving up low end grunt.

I don't want to go into lecture mode here, but I'm hoping you know enough about what you're asking for and what I'm saying to get "my drift". There are some decent gains to be had by some fine tuning and small modifications which will definetly give you some extra grunt, but if you're taking about crazy gain expectations, you will have to spend crazy money and give up all sorts of driveability\reliability and simplicity to get there.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
206 Posts
When my buddy takes his mustang to the dyno next ill run mine and post it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,004 Posts
Here's a jumping off point for you guys trying to extract additional power out of your rigs...... just something I came across

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
500 Posts
My Malone stage 2 is 305bhp. Dpf/scr delete should bump it up slightly. I’m more than happy with how powerful it is, I doubt I’ll change much more engine wise. I’m gonna dyno it at Malone soon.

If I really wanna have fun, I’ve got my supercharged 16v mk1. :D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,004 Posts
If I really wanna have fun, I’ve got my supercharged 16v mk1. :D
I really hope you have some serious tires on that......otherwise.....


My Mk3 when it was only 8v was useless in the first two gears and I would get my doors blown off by a city bus from a dig.... (turbo too... so "laggy" compared to your SC setup)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
350 Posts
id say mines close if not over 330
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
600 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
Well 330 HP is a make me smile number. Everything I've found looks like 290-300 is the upper end of stock.



However I've noticed that the torque curve drops off fast.... when I'm in D2 and D3 and at peak torque it is a fun ride. I've also noticed that some of the tunes talk about big peak power numbers but low torque numbers.


I guess if I had the choice I'd take a flat torque curve as the T3 does some weird shifting especially in kick down mode.


I can tell the turbo is under sized by the feel and the dyno curves above back that up.


I was curious if there was a way to tune the vane areas smaller at low speed to move the spool RPM down further.



I also wonder which compressor they use. Is it an extended tip compressor like the (now old) S series from BorgWarner or perhaps a computer opotimized design like Bullseye Power makes?


If my memory serves me the S series was a HUGE improvement in compressor map in both thermodynamic efficiency and the shape (width) of the total pressure ratio curve.


More HP and more torque are not mutually exclusive. Perhaps with this turbo charger arrangement they are.


I've seen the A5/A6 with 400 HP which as I understood took a hybrid turbo from Darkside and a new CP1 fuel pump.


So the question is how good can the stock setup be tuned?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
206 Posts
For that price you can buy a whole turbo for a few bills more and it’ll be bigger and better. It def seems like my car is begging for more air in the top end after 4th gear.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
500 Posts
I really hope you have some serious tires on that......otherwise.....
BFGoodrich G-force. Hooks quite nicely. But if i really wanna have traction and fun, I have my stage 4 A6 2.7TT 6mt. Quattro launches for days. :D

If I want pure acceleration and near-death experiences, I have my bike. >:)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
206 Posts
I bet your Touareg can keep up with the a6 out of the hole. If not even launch harder than the a6.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,004 Posts
I bet your Touareg can keep up with the a6 out of the hole. If not even launch harder than the a6.
You sir are delusional...... Or you've never seen what modded 2.7TTs can do...

NTDI, you need to read up on turbos and the related components. Also look up the vane system used on these cars. The stuff you say above makes me rage. I'll give you two quick hints... You need exhaust flow to reduce spool time (read additional displacement, external pressurized system (think Koenigsegg), propane injection, etc) and you need a larger, better flowing compressor with more flow and more inertia (bigger wheel is heavier, more rotational mass, doesn't flow as well at low pressures, etc) for the additional top end power you're after.

Chew,
I hear you bro.... Compared to my crotch rocket, all this Mickey mousing we do to our vehicles barely manages to get the heart rate up.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
600 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
For that price you can buy a whole turbo for a few bills more and it’ll be bigger and better. It def seems like my car is begging for more air in the top end after 4th gear.

Bigger isn't always better. There are always trade offs. This is why compound and parallel turbo systems have been tried and why there are now inline compound systems (SST turbos). For my goals a slightly larger compressor opening and a better compressor wheel design would probably take me from stock 290-300 (max) to 330.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
600 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
You sir are delusional...... Or you've never seen what modded 2.7TTs can do...

NTDI, you need to read up on turbos and the related components. Also look up the vane system used on these cars. The stuff you say above makes me rage. I'll give you two quick hints... You need exhaust flow to reduce spool time (read additional displacement, external pressurized system (think Koenigsegg), propane injection, etc) and you need a larger, better flowing compressor with more flow and more inertia (bigger wheel is heavier, more rotational mass, doesn't flow as well at low pressures, etc) for the additional top end power you're after.

Chew,
I hear you bro.... Compared to my crotch rocket, all this Mickey mousing we do to our vehicles barely manages to get the heart rate up.



I'd say get your rage under control. I know enough about turbos... don't make me break out the maths.


The whole point of small turbos is less inertia, less spool up time. The reason for VGTs is to maximize the available energy by accelerating it through the nozzles and hit the turbine wheel with the max velocity possible. Thus better throttle response and more peak power compared to non VGT turbos.



What you are saying is true to a point. Every lbsm/minute or kg/s of compressor flow requires a certain amount of work (kw or HP) from the turbine wheel... there is only so much work you can get from the exhaust at a given EGT (turbine inlet temperature), mass flow and pressure.... you can up the temp, increase the pressure and change the choke velocity and thus to a degree the mass flow. Of course making the down pipe bigger drops the delta P across the turbo and you get more mass flow and thus more energy through the turbo.



In the old days a bigger turbo was the only option as the compressors (compared to today) weren't that Thermodynamically efficient.


Have you ever compared a Garrett GT to a Borg Warner S Series for the same basic mass flow? (this is 10 year old data by now but back then the compressor maps were night and day).



I bet if I put a Bullseye Power style compressor wheel in a stock or next size up hybrid turbo like the GTB2566 I could make the torque curve wider and hit the 330 or 350 HP goal.

If you look at the attached compressor maps you can see the big change in aerodynamics between the Garett and the S series by looking at the size of the efficiency 'islands' in terms of pressure ratio and mass flow. The S series have both higher pressure ratios and a wider island so you can run in peak compressor efficiency for a wider range of mass flows and a higher pressure ratio. This all equates to more boost and more RPMs at that boost. Changing just the compressor flow and compressor housing on an other wise stock turbo can have a big change in performance. The only limit is that mass flow through the exhaust and limits the total energy available to run the compressor. But generally speaking with the increase in efficiency of the compressor wheels you can get more boost and mass flow for the same delivered turbine horse power. Of course there is a limit to how efficient a compressor can be. So at some point to make more power you need a larger turbine wheel and housing or at least to allow a higher RPM and perhaps a bypass ratio to allow the engine itself to flow....

From what I've seen a typical Garrett turbo like used on the 3.0 TDI doesn't really have the latest compressor Aero that a billet wheel can get you, where they can run a higher blade loading and one less blade to pickup an extra 10-15% or so increase in effective inlet area, which gives the effect of a larger inducer diameter.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
600 Posts
Discussion Starter #19
Anyway... my original question was 330 HP and a wider torque curve on stock hardware. Looks like my question has been answered.


I'll probably try a Stage 2 tune first and then do some upgrades if I'm not happy with that....


Perhaps a compressor upgrade before tune is money well spent....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,004 Posts
My rage will never be in check... So break out whatever you want.

If we are going to start arguing about compressor maps, wheel design, exotic materials, a/r ratios, etc, let's do it....

I don't know why you're under the impression that a global manufacturer of turbos doesn't have an efficient design. Anythibg that you do to your compressor side will only shift the powerband and increase spool time. You can't gain singificant exhaust flow into the existing turbine or a more flowing turbine without other massive mods like additional displacement, etc. You may be able to make slight improvements by fine tuning plumbing and reducing back pressure and pressure drop across the IC, getting into exotic bearing center sections and stuff, but all of these will not be cost effective. From your earlier posts above, I got the impression that you want (or believe there's a way) to get all sorts of gains without giving anything up.

I'm eager to see your future setup since you appear to think that one of the very top global automotive giants with all its resources managed to get the turbo design so wrong on our vehicles.
 
1 - 20 of 565 Posts
Top