Club Touareg Forum banner
1 - 8 of 8 Posts

·
Registered
2016 MY17 V6 TDI Canyon Gray Metallic
Joined
·
300 Posts
Well, I've confirmed my suspicions on my commute into work this morning.
I logged the parameters and confirmed that the system does not increase the voltage sufficiently to even fully charge the battery to 100% level. Below is a log showing its exact behavior. I may try to put the charger back on the battery with a manual setting of high current to see if I can forcefully charge the battery to a higher level.... just not sure that would yield any benefits based on what I'm seeing.

Log #565328
Good morning from Aussieland -- a very interesting post - I note that with my "smart multi stage charger" (Projecta brand) that the normal program set to Calcium battery the charge voltage does not go above 15.1 volts, however my redarc DC to DC charger will output 15.3 volts on the calcium setting ( I only use the redarc for my caravan AGM battery though) but. your post has prompted me to just check the output of the redarc BCDC12/25. I will now go and see what the vehicle does and check the battery in the car - Thanks
 

·
Registered
2016 MY17 V6 TDI Canyon Gray Metallic
Joined
·
300 Posts
Looks like my only option is to get a proper, manual (aka dumb) charger so that I can control the voltage and amperage myself as far as the settings.
Hi SaVAGeSoot The battery types that you posted in photos reflect that they are calcium style batteries -- they are a variant of that type with added silver https://productsheets.varta-automot...93.519275033.1655847879-1778870645.1655847879
So I see no reason why a quality multi stage charger would not do the job


Rectangle Font Parallel Pattern Number
 

·
Registered
2016 MY17 V6 TDI Canyon Gray Metallic
Joined
·
300 Posts
As per my earlier mention, according to my research, they require a 16.1-16.5v charge at 10% of capacity current. Even your listed charger can't keep up 😉

Check out post 9 to see that I only got 84ah into the 110ah "capacity" with my charger as a result of it not being able to supply the voltage that high.
Hi SaVAGeSoot Not quite sure how you determined that you need such a high voltage to charge your battery would you please let us/me know, as far as I can determine there is nothing different about the type of batteries shown in your photos(post #1) and those generally available for automotive lead acid "style" batteries that require a charging voltage irrespective of its chemical style -- each cell within L.A. batteries produces around 2.2 volts per cell and the nominal charge rate is 2.4 - 2.45(2.5) volts per cell however different chemical additives permit variation within that range. Lithium batteries are a totally different proposition of course while using similar voltages the charging profile is different and it is not good to float charge them as one does a lead acid battery.

I guess what I am saying is that you may well be damaging/shortening battery life of your battery with such a high charge voltage, unless of course there is formal advice to the contrary.
 

·
Registered
2016 MY17 V6 TDI Canyon Gray Metallic
Joined
·
300 Posts
Here are two extracts from some of the numerous articles I've been reading on the subject. Depending on how much time you want to kill, you can easily find more with some google searches.





If you have sources to share, or if you can otherwise explain why both my current charger and the vehicle's system aren't bringing the battery up closer to its full potential, I'd be all ears!

Hi SaVAGeSoot well I guess one lives and learns however what I have read appears to indicate that the charging profiles do not reflect the charging profiles set by many reputable and leading manufacturers of smart chargers -- However from what I gather the 16+ voltage is to assist with a "reconditioning" process but in doing so I believe that one must monitor the battery temperature closely to ensure that it does not get too hot ( I recollect reading somewhere about 45 Deg C and that if a battery is charged at 14.5V and its in a vehicle in motion then the electrolyte is actually agitated enough to permit it to be charged fully.. It is also interesting to see that some artices suggest that one can "recondition" an calcium battery back to 100% capacity.... I also found this article of interest Introduction to Silver Calcium Battery (batterym.com)

From one source 🔋 How to charge a calcium car battery correctly (a6s.info)
Official instruction
How do manufacturers recommend charging a calcium battery? They usually attach a brief instruction to it, in which, without any clear explanations, they write what to do. One of these official instructions is now on my desk, and we will take the key points from it.
The following is written in it:
  1. The calcium battery should be charged with a current equal to 10% of the capacity.
  2. When the charge voltage reaches 14.4 V, the current must be halved and charged for 10 hours.
  3. Upon completion of the charge, it is necessary to check the density of the electrolyte and, in case of high concentration, correct it by adding water.
  4. Each time after adjusting the density, the battery must be charged at a voltage of 16 V, and carried out for 40 minutes.
This guide is really good. But it has several shortcomings at once. The author of this instruction did not say a word about those cases when the density at the end of the charge, on the contrary, is low. He also did not say anything about the fact that 16 V can adversely affect the car's electronics if it occurred to you to charge the battery without disconnecting it from the on-board network. In addition, there is nothing in this manual for those whose chargers can only be adjusted by voltage, or even automatic.
So, let's expand on this guide a bit. Rather, we will rewrite it from scratch, not forgetting about non-standard situations. We will also add to it a few recommendations that will extend the life of the calcium battery.
Calcium battery charging algorithm
If instructions for charging a calcium battery were instructed to write to me, then it would look like this:
  1. Estimate the state of charge of the battery by the rest voltage or the indicator on the case.
  2. If the rest voltage is below 12.3 V (or the indicator is not green), charge the battery using a charger.
  3. Disconnect the battery from the on-board network.
  4. If there are blockages, turn it out.
  5. Connect the charger, having previously set the charge current to 10% of the real capacity, and not from the one that is written on the case.
  6. Charge until the voltage reaches 14.4 V and the charge current drops to 0.1-0.3 A.
  7. If you are going to travel in the near future, then simply connect the battery to the car's on-board network.
  8. If you are not planning to travel, additionally charge the battery at 16.1 V for 40 minutes.
  9. If the density of the electrolyte up to the 8th point is normal, then it is not necessary to charge with a voltage of 16.1 V.
  10. The same is true if the indicator on the battery case turns green.
What has changed in the end compared to the official instructions? Firstly, we eliminated the risk of damaging the car's electronics with a voltage of 16.1 V. Secondly, we made it clear that the essence of the charge with a voltage of 16.1 V is to mix the electrolyte. If we are planning a trip, it will stir itself from vibration. If not, we forcibly provoke electrolysis with high voltage, that is, we boil the battery. Thirdly, we made it clear that a calcium battery discharged to 60% (and below) should be charged. Otherwise, sulfation will begin.
In addition, if you carefully read the proposed algorithm for charging a calcium battery, you can understand that it is suitable for almost all types of chargers. Even for do-it-yourselfers.

But that's not all. Even our supplemented instructions cannot be called complete. It does not have answers to many questions that are often asked by owners of calcium batteries. Therefore, let's spend a little more time and analyze 10 questions regarding this type of battery. By the way, many of the answers provided are generic. That is, they will also be useful in cases where the battery is not calcium, but some other - classic, AGM, GEL, and so on.
About car battery desulfation

What charger to charge a calcium battery?
Typical calcium battery charger
If you need without dancing with tambourines, then a special charger for calcium batteries. These include those that have a 16.1 V charging mode. How to use such devices is clearly described in their operating instructions. The basic principle is based on what has already been said above.

f the charger is not special, and it does not provide for voltage adjustment, it will not work to charge a calcium battery stationary up to 100%. However, as real experiments show, this can be achieved by mechanical mixing of the electrolyte instead of boiling with increased voltage. All that is needed for this is to install the battery on the car and drive a few kilometers on not the most flat road. After that, as a rule, the density evens out and the indicator on the case turns green.

What voltage to charge a calcium battery?
For a full charge, a voltage of at least 14.4 V is required. If the battery is charged stationary, then at the end it is necessary to forcefully mix the electrolyte by electrolysis. You already know how much tension to provoke him. Under the hood, under normal conditions, there is no such problem, since everything is perfectly mixed from vibrations. It is very useful to turn to logic and common sense here. If manufacturers know that the voltage of the on-board network on cars is 14.4-14.8 V, then they would make batteries that cannot do without 16 V.

On the Internet, there are smart people who put forward the bad idea that calcium batteries should not be bought for a car at all. Like, there is no voltage sufficient for a 100 percent charge under the hood, which means that the battery will quickly die from sulfation. This is nonsense caused by misunderstanding. Real experience confirms this. If there are no generator malfunctions in your car, the calcium

How much current to charge a calcium battery?
Probably everyone knows that the charging current should be no more than 10% of the battery capacity. This is the golden rule. But it's a trick. The fact is that the capacity of the batteries is constantly decreasing during operation. And most motorists continue to charge them 10% of what is written on the case. This leads to the fact that the battery is not fully charged, and its service life is ultimately greatly reduced.
Therefore, you need to understand what kind of capacity to take 10%. While the calcium battery is new, there is every chance that it has as many ampere-hours as it is written on the case. But a year later, this figure is noticeably reduced. Even if you take care of the battery, avoiding modes that are harmful to it. The actual capacitance can be measured with special devices. If there is no desire to buy them, then simply after each year of battery service, discard 10-15 ampere-hours from the original capacity on the case. Already from this figure, take 10%, and charge.

I wonder how the VW electronics manages the smart alternator operation --- PFM ( Pure Flaming Magic) I guess.
 

·
Registered
2016 MY17 V6 TDI Canyon Gray Metallic
Joined
·
300 Posts
Hey Ian,
This is why I'm "chasing" the correct information\procedure\specs.....
I'm not necessarily saying that the mentioned 16v+ is the correct way.... but I am clearly seeing that my battery with a fairly new\recent\modern smart charger has not brought up to anywhere near its 100% values.
I can't explain this phenomenon unless I go ahead and believe the 16v+ requirement..... OR unless I assume that my new battery has already aged and it has lost 23% capacity while in transit\sitting on vw's parts shelf, etc.

As such, I'm leaning towards the 16v+ charging\reconditioning requirement.......

Maybe it's just me........ would you be OK with your new $400 battery only having 77% rated capacity?
Hi again SaVAGeSoot - its just me.... Can I ask you when you got your battery from the VW dealer did you get a battery maintenance card with it -- although I have not sourced a battery for my 2013 model yet.. I am reliably told that the VW parts distributor should maintain them as they do when one gets a new vehicle - they also have a battery maintenance card that logs that it has been "cared for" properly during storage. so my next question does the battery have a date of manufacture on it ???? It could well be old stock... and that may well explain the problem.
One of these things may well help you out for your 16 volts power source -- this is a 10 amp one however they are also available in 20 amp etc models DC Power Supply - 30V 10A/6A Precision Variable Digital Lab Adjustable+Cable AU | eBay I have a 10 amp one and use it for so many little things the beauty of it is one can limit the current and voltage -- I would tend to try the 16 volt point limited to 6 amps for 40 minutes method.. I realise that VW recommend charging the battery with one of their VAG tools so I wonder just what that tool does. I remember back when I was working we had to maintain battery packs for the emergency lighting system on our aircraft after a number of failures we re-engineered them and fitted larger Nicad batteries and introduced a more frequent remove and maintain program. We bought a machine that did the discharge/recharge function and ran a capacity check before recharging then -- even 20 odd years ago the tool gave us a print out of battery capacity. if the battery failed the test set at 90% it tried a couple of attempts to recondition them before rejecting them. So I guess thier tool may do the same.. Have you tried a battery shop with a proper battery capacity tester it may be worth a try ... good luck please keep me posted I am interested. Thanks for all the info at least its brought me a little more current on my battery theory. Cheers Ian
 

·
Registered
2016 MY17 V6 TDI Canyon Gray Metallic
Joined
·
300 Posts
I didn't get a maintenance card from the clown dealers on this side of the pond, so no clue on their charging.

You can see in my pics that the battery is from last year..... Stamped on the post.
Sorry I didn't see that as the date -- in the past I have been used to seeing date stamped on cases. -- looks like your diagnosis is correct not properly maintained before you got it.
 

·
Registered
2016 MY17 V6 TDI Canyon Gray Metallic
Joined
·
300 Posts
I will contact the dealer to see what they have to say, but I'm quite certain they will tell me to go pound salt....
Realistically, there's no real issue at the moment, and there's a good chance that it won't even come into play until 5 years from now if it actually becomes a thing, but they should do better, especially when charging these kinds of dollars for "premium" tech.
I guess that the least they could do for you is check it om their tool -- good luck
 

·
Registered
2016 MY17 V6 TDI Canyon Gray Metallic
Joined
·
300 Posts
Sounds like a good plan -- I read the info on the Midtronics battery tester and chargers -- I note their max charging voltage is 14.7 however they appear not to differentiate the Flooded L A, AGM or calcium battery charge profile. Strange ! Take care stay safe -- catch up at the end of the year with a followup.
 
1 - 8 of 8 Posts
Top