Possible insurance for CP4 pump failure- Exergy System Saver?

casioqv · Mar 2, 2020

I noticed these filters are marketed for CP4 american trucks, which prevent the pump failure from damaging the rest of the fuel system. Has anyone looked into this, and would it fit on our common rail TDI engines?

Exergy System Saver E05 10505 Improved Inlet Metering Valve (FCA/MPROP) LML

Exergy LML System Saver E05-10505

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dirtyhookerdiesel.com

casioqv · Mar 2, 2020

Update: I sent Exergy and e-mail, we'll see what they say.

volkswagens-for-life · Mar 3, 2020

It's made for the cp4.2, which we have, and looking at the part it looks like it would fit, so yes I'd say it will fit.

casioqv · Mar 3, 2020

Here is the reply from Exergy:

We have not done any testing with the system saver on the VW so we can't say if it will work or not. We have only tested it on the LML and the Ford 6.7. Thanks for checking with us.

casioqv · Mar 3, 2020

volkswagens-for-life said:
It's made for the cp4.2, which we have, and looking at the part it looks like it would fit, so yes I'd say it will fit.

Thanks for the info. It seems like it might be worth a try, but having checked the truck forums, there aren't any people I could find out there that experienced a pump failure with this installed, to confirm or reject the idea that it actually protects the system.

dreadlocks · Mar 3, 2020

There's an aftermarket one of these that increases flow for big turbo builds on darkside's site, I believe it fits on the 4.1 too it just dont really help as those are not starving for fuel like the 3L is past 350hp.

I'd take some VCDS logs of normal flow rates and injector duty and all that with the original, and then repeat with that to see if anythings drastically different.. how much protection it offers I think is questionable.. its filtering just on the HPFP input, so if HPFP grenades its still sending metal into the high pressure rail, injectors and return lines where its gonna get recirculated, pass through the OE filter before this filter catches any it, basically whole system is f'd before this stops anything.. I'd rather have a 2micron on the return line to catch it grenading, and a better filter/water separator on the input than a tiny inlet screen.

casioqv · Mar 3, 2020

dreadlocks said:
its filtering just on the HPFP input, so if HPFP grenades its still sending metal into the high pressure rail

I'm still confused about how the CP4 works, but this thread seems to suggest that it's filtering after the main cam pump in the case, which is the part that fails and sends out metal debris... so possibly it would protect the rail and injectors:

How can an Exergy system saver protect your fuel system???

I am the original owner of a 2012 3500HD and to help prevent a CP4 failure I installed a Fass Titanium series lift pump about a year or so ago and have been using Opti-Lube in my fuel. My final step is to replace my FPR1 with the Exergy System Saver in case of a failure. So I ordered it and...

www.dieselplace.com

I agree a better filter before the pump might be a better solution... since the truck forums mention engines with over 500k miles on the factory pump, and most cases of failure seem to involve contaminated fuel.

Since my car is still under the post-fix "all fuel system components" emissions warranty, I plan to buy all my fuel at the same station, and keep all of the receipts until the warranty is up- and then preventatively install a new pump and filter + water separator immediately before the warranty expires, along with using opti-lube.

volkswagens-for-life · Mar 3, 2020

dreadlocks said:
There's an aftermarket one of these that increases flow for big turbo builds on darkside's site, I believe it fits on the 4.1 too it just dont really help as those are not starving for fuel like the 3L is past 350hp.

I'd take some VCDS logs of normal flow rates and injector duty and all that with the original, and then repeat with that to see if anythings drastically different.. how much protection it offers I think is questionable.. its filtering just on the HPFP input, so if HPFP grenades its still sending metal into the high pressure rail, injectors and return lines where its gonna get recirculated, pass through the OE filter before this filter catches any it, basically whole system is f'd before this stops anything.. I'd rather have a 2micron on the return line to catch it grenading, and a better filter/water separator on the input than a tiny inlet screen.

Damn.. thats such a good point. Spot on.

dreadlocks · Mar 3, 2020

That video shows it going into the HPFP, through that metering valve and then compressed to high pressure or returned.. I dunno exactly where these are failing but there's alot more going on post meter valve than before it.. later in the video it shows the cam shaft is lubed by the feed back into the return (~1:40), so that would bypass the filter if that whole cam were to self destruct.. how much if anything is left of the cam after? Just the lobe missing, mebe.. if shaft is broken, doubtful.. you got the lifter pump still trying to push fuel through that dead thing.

Yellow is low pressure, red is high pressure, and green is return..

I have a feeling if these were so good at protecting the engine, these would be super popular mods, and OEM's like VW would of started doing this to all the CR TDI's after NHSA investigation forced VAG to capitulate.. If the original valve has screen filter already, its hardly effective so does reducing flow and increasing screen density really help all that much? its not like its a canister filter with a bunch of surface area either.. assuming it works, you'd still want a prefilter thats lower micron than this that dont cost $200 to replace.

I'm no expert tho either, mebe this should be shown off on TDIClub and see what oilhammer and the rest of the diesel pro's think.. if it is effective, and nobody knows about it.. the'd like to know over there too since its likely to work on the 4.1 pump too.

casioqv · Mar 4, 2020

So the part that produces metal flakes is the 'cam' on the main crankshaft, which is before both the metering valve and the high pressure pump. If I'm understanding correctly, the flow path is: crankcase -> metering valve -> high pressure piston/cylinder -> fuel rail. Therefore, if the crankcase and followers fail and produce metal flakes, the metering valve can filter this out before it flows into the high pressure section of the pump.

This image shows the fuel path, where part 3 is the metering valve:

This website also has some photos and diagrams of the flow path, and failures, plus another even better idea for preventing the failure. Basically, they return all fuel from the fuel lubricated crankcase back to the fuel tank, so only freshly filtered fuel enters the actual high pressure parts of the pump:

Save Your Power Stroke With an S&S CP4.2 Bypass Kit

The $360 insurance policy every 6.7L Power Stroke needs. Get a CP4.2 Bypass Kit before it’s too late.

www.drivingline.com

It seems like with the cp42 bypass kit, it would be a very good idea to also add a filter to the return line.

casioqv · Mar 4, 2020

Now that I'm understanding the CP4 pump better, it's an incredible design oversight to take the fuel for the high pressure pump from the outflow of the crankcase. They could have just as easily taken only clean fuel from the intake, and total fuel system destruction would never happen.

dreadlocks · Mar 4, 2020

According to that diagram the return line dont go through the metering valve so it might protect your injectors and the high pressure side I think your entire low pressure fuel system is going to be contaminated.. and I suspect debris smaller than 25 micron could foobar these injectors at such pressures.. it'd be a roll of the dice, might survive w/reduced life or might really screw w/flowrates.

I'd much rather use that bypass kit with a 2-Micron on the feed and return lines.. that would isolate the return path, and permit lower micron filtering on high pressure side.. tha'd make it pretty much bulletproof..

Great discussion, I'm lovin that bypass kit you found.. as someone trying to bulletproof his 3L thats a very good solution IMO.

volkswagens-for-life · Mar 4, 2020

casioqv said:
So the part that produces metal flakes is the 'cam' on the main crankshaft, which is before both the metering valve and the high pressure pump. If I'm understanding correctly, the flow path is: crankcase -> metering valve -> high pressure piston/cylinder -> fuel rail. Therefore, if the crankcase and followers fail and produce metal flakes, the metering valve can filter this out before it flows into the high pressure section of the pump.

This image shows the fuel path, where part 3 is the metering valve:

This website also has some photos and diagrams of the flow path, and failures, plus another even better idea for preventing the failure. Basically, they return all fuel from the fuel lubricated crankcase back to the fuel tank, so only freshly filtered fuel enters the actual high pressure parts of the pump:

Save Your Power Stroke With an S&S CP4.2 Bypass Kit

The $360 insurance policy every 6.7L Power Stroke needs. Get a CP4.2 Bypass Kit before it’s too late.

www.drivingline.com

It seems like with the cp42 bypass kit, it would be a very good idea to also add a filter to the return line.

Interesting.. now that bypass kit you've found I've not heard of. Does that basically replace the metering valve it looks like??? Quite a pricey kit, but since the 4.2 is our BIGGEST point of contention on these rigs it would appear to be completely worth the cost...

dreadlocks · Mar 4, 2020

Its a sandwich plate that goes on under the metering valve..

Looks cheaper than a CP3 conversion, no EGR delete needed.. I just got my dieselgate payout and while I'm voiding the warranties on everything unfixing this I'd like to bulletproof it.. I'd like to do some international travel in the next few years so beefing up the filtering and ridding my self of some emissions gear should make it a bit more tolerant to poor fuel sources, like the kind you buy out of a can in the back of an old toyota.

soon as it warms a lil bit today up immna go smoke a bowl and stare into my engine bay and see if I can come up with a place to mount a 2micron water seperator, how to route the return line through the OE filter, and if this lil sandwich plate is going to cause any interference.. I'd like to tackle this if possible in the next month or two when I go to tune and delete everything.

volkswagens-for-life · Mar 4, 2020

So the metering valve would plug into this sandwich plate??
Also.. as far as room goes.. going off of memory, there is a pipe of some sort (coolant or charge pipe or something) that runs right atop the metering valve... not sure there would be clearance to add an additional layer of height to that piece?

casioqv · Mar 4, 2020

dreadlocks said:
Great discussion, I'm lovin that bypass kit you found.. as someone trying to bulletproof his 3L thats a very good solution IMO.

Likewise! I agree, the bypass kit + a filter on the return seems like the way to go. I'd also carry a new, or good used pump. For road trips/expedition/camping with my family I'd like to be able to in principle have a CP4 failure out in the wilderness, and get going again on my own. If it's going to happen it will likely be getting diesel fuel in very remote places, which are more likely to have dirty or water contaminated fuel.

The 'system saver' is highly questionable... it also seems unlikely to me that filling the injectors and fuel tank with metal glitter will be just fine, as long as the pieces are under 25 micron.

dreadlocks said:
soon as it warms a lil bit today up immna go smoke a bowl and stare into my engine bay and see if I can come up with a place to mount a 2micron water seperator, how to route the return line through the OE filter, and if this lil sandwich plate is going to cause any interference.. I'd like to tackle this if possible in the next month or two when I go to tune and delete everything.

If you get this to work please post photos. I want to do it also, but am going to wait until my post-fix VW emissions warranty is up.

I'd also like to hear of any solutions you have for taking these V6 TDIs internationally (I'd assume Mexico). I'd also like to take mine to Baja, and don't want to worry about ruining the fuel system. Besides the high sulfur content, I've heard stories of needing a new filter every few miles after filling up at remote Baja diesel stations...

dreadlocks · Mar 4, 2020

ah crap my 2nd gen motor has the HPFP buried so deep ive no way to tell if that plate has any hope of working w/out tearing the intake off.. and thats not a good sign, when vag crams 10lbs of **** into a 5lb bag its always hard to modify anything.. Alldata says 3.2h to take intake off, so in the next few months might of been optimistic.. this is gonna go on the, when im there I'll check it out list.

edit
so I took a few things outta the way and got my fingers down in around the HPFP and think I located the valve pointing off to pass side, there seems to be just a fingers width between the top of that and bottom of intake.. sooo, yeah that plate is looking like a no-go for me.. my only recourse is original link it appears, bummer.. might still be viable for the 1st gen with the HPFP on front of motor, dunno.

dreadlocks · May 1, 2020

ok so I revisited this plan, and here's what I determined would be required to put the CP4.2 Bypass Kit on our vehicles, would require modification..

first a couple things:

Our HPFP's use hose barbs, the bypass kits are designed for hard pipes..
Since we dont have hard pipes our HPFP is not tapped for a bracket screw between the ports.
I'm pretty sure EGR is in the way, the return pipe is going to be moved about an inch forward to the motor and it seems to be in the way.

but, I think these could be overcome if your determined.. EGR removal would require blanking plates for turbo and intake, plus might require cutting off the aluminum coolant intake port on EGR and welding a hose fitting onto the end, looks doable, or trying to fit a pressurized hose onto the flange that bridges where egr used to be.. and of course a tune that removes it..

then you would have to modify the bypass kit bracket to cut the mounting off for the hard pipe its designed for and make enough clearance for the return nipple.

The aluminum high pressure line under the return line is about the same path the fuel feed line will take with the bypass plate.. just more to the right.

EGR in the way, look at fuel lines from above.. Maybe you can get lucky and retain that, but it would be a very tight fit..

dreadlocks · May 2, 2020

I started ordering parts to put a 1Micron Pre-Filter w/Water Separator Drain, going to put this on right after emissions delete next weekend.. this is the plan on changing the fuel system:

There's a flat plate I can mount a Canton CM 25-294B with a 1 Micron Filter, its got a water drain valve.. I'll put it inline after the primary OEM filter and then splice another OEM filter into the return.

the filter with fittings will look like this unmounted:

Then under the OEM filter you find the return pipe coming out of the HPFP, it just bends back and goes right to the tank.. this U-Turn will be removed.. from HPFP will go into the OEM filter inlet, and to tank will come out of the OEM filter outlet.. pretty simple routing, but OEM fuel filter might need to be flipped the other direction.

With the fuel system modified in such a way I'll have a 30 micron OEM pre-filter, to a 1 Micron Fuel Filter on the HPFP Input, with a drainable water separator.. I figure I'll change this with every oil change since its filtering more and check drain between tanks.. and the fuel return on the HPFP will pass through another OEM filter before going back to the tank, which will hopefully save the "low pressure" side of the fuel system if the HPFP were to let go..

Later down the line when I got more miles I'll get more serious about ripping the EGR remnants out and trying to fit that bypass plate, then the system would be basically bulletproof.. The OEM Filter is like 20-30 micron IIRC, it should collect almost all of the metal, and then the 1-micron pre-filter would catch anything that smaller than the OEM filter could catch before it went through some injectors.

dreadlocks · May 6, 2020

I emailed S&S asking if they could make a universal CP4.2 bypass plate that allowed for hose barb fittings for both input/output.. they responded thanks for the suggestion the'll pass it on to development to see if its possible..

I linked em to this thread, if they made one and it fit w/out modification.. we'd all be buying em like hotcakes right? I know I'd be willing to drill and tap the missing mounting hole if thats all it needed and had hose barbs in same general location as OEM so nothing major had to be removed to make room.

Possible insurance for CP4 pump failure- Exergy System Saver?

Exergy LML System Saver E05-10505

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