2.5TDI R5 torsion value - Club Touareg Forums
 
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post #1 of 10 Old 09-12-2018 Thread Starter
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2.5TDI R5 torsion value

Hi,


I have done lot of research at setting up the torsion value aka cam timing in 1.4TDI and 1.9TDI engines and it has huge effect to cars fuel consumption. I have found out that it is possible to adjust the timing also on the 2.5tdi r5 engine.
http://www.hinodetools.com/jtcdata/d...NSTRUCTION.pdf




Has anybody done this cam installing and do they know if you just adjust why do you need to remove the tandem pump?
You dont need to take the pump out in other pump duse engines at least I havent taken it out when doing adjusting :/.



On my Touareg vag com block 4 value was -3,3 and idle fuel consumption 1.2 l/h which is totally in line values what I had in other pump duse diesels. Best fuel consumption values has been between +2,2 to +6,0.


Can you look what you car had the idle fuel consumption with warm engine and with what torsion value?

2004 R5 2.5TDI with 6 speed manual gearbox trailer towing machine with modifications to lower fuel consumption.


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post #2 of 10 Old 09-12-2018
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You need help from the likes of e4Pikanini.

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Generation 2: T3 is model 7P5 & facelift T4 is model 7P6
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post #3 of 10 Old 09-12-2018
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noobytoogy View Post
You need help from the likes of e4Pikanini.
My advice....

If it aint broke, don't fix it.

The R5 is already such a well set up engine. Any fiddling you do will ruin it.

Rather spend the money on the following known issues when they arise

Leaking tandem pump
Cracked exhaust manifold
Gunked up EGR valve and intake manifold
Front diff bearings
Suspension components
etc.

You know you can only use 505.01 or 506.01 oil right? NOT the 507.00!

The camshaft is sensitive to oil as well as the cylinder liner coatings. Change your oil every 10'000km.

All vw/audi engines must use 507.00 spec oil except non-DPF R5/V10 engines that must use 505.01/506.01
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post #4 of 10 Old 09-15-2018 Thread Starter
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I have now found few videos. Correct me if I have understood something wrong.


- Camshaft gear is tapered (is it?) and the diamond washers helps to hold the gear in place/not to loose the nut. Which can be seen nicely from the second video





I know already that camshaft can be adjusted engine in place.
What I am planning to do is to follow the second video.
1. take camcover out
2. take tandem pump out
3.lock the crankshaft in place
4. lock camshaft in place

5. loose the nut that holds the camgear in place, seen to be in second video 1.30-->
6. based on my torsion value and how much I need to move the camshaft to what direction to get +2.0 torsion value for starters. I will flip the tool seen at 0,43 seconds 180 degrees and make a paper etc to mark where it was and where it needs to be to get correct torsion value. Move the cam directly by turning that tool.

7. follow fixing based on the video from 12.50->


Repeat the process to try various settings to find best value. What I cam promise that -3,3 torsio and 1.,1-1,2 l/h is not the best.



Why I I would like to do this adjustment?
On smaller vag tdi engines not properly/optimally adjusted torsion can have over 10% lower/worse fuel consumption. At the moment my touareg was able to reach 7.3 l/100km fuel consumption at 100 km/h speed. For most that would be already really good figure but. If I am able to lower the fuel consumption 10% just by moving to torsion value aka camshaft position to optimal value. Fuel consumption drops even 0.7 liters/100km with 1.5 €/l fuel price that means 1,05€/100km saving --> 1050€ every saved every 100000km driven.


But also engine makes more max power, more low end torque so you can drive lower rpm and you dont have to downshift so often in uphills.


I would appreciate if you could say if you have different idle fuel consumption values and with what torsion value you are seeing those values?

2004 R5 2.5TDI with 6 speed manual gearbox trailer towing machine with modifications to lower fuel consumption.


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post #5 of 10 Old 09-16-2018
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesa Tiainen View Post
I have now found few videos. Correct me if I have understood something wrong.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEE3Aymvg20
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhZDS8Q9QgM


- Camshaft gear is tapered (is it?) and the diamond washers helps to hold the gear in place/not to loose the nut. Which can be seen nicely from the second video





I know already that camshaft can be adjusted engine in place.
What I am planning to do is to follow the second video.
1. take camcover out
2. take tandem pump out
3.lock the crankshaft in place
4. lock camshaft in place

5. loose the nut that holds the camgear in place, seen to be in second video 1.30-->
6. based on my torsion value and how much I need to move the camshaft to what direction to get +2.0 torsion value for starters. I will flip the tool seen at 0,43 seconds 180 degrees and make a paper etc to mark where it was and where it needs to be to get correct torsion value. Move the cam directly by turning that tool.

7. follow fixing based on the video from 12.50->


Repeat the process to try various settings to find best value. What I cam promise that -3,3 torsio and 1.,1-1,2 l/h is not the best.



Why I I would like to do this adjustment?
On smaller vag tdi engines not properly/optimally adjusted torsion can have over 10% lower/worse fuel consumption. At the moment my touareg was able to reach 7.3 l/100km fuel consumption at 100 km/h speed. For most that would be already really good figure but. If I am able to lower the fuel consumption 10% just by moving to torsion value aka camshaft position to optimal value. Fuel consumption drops even 0.7 liters/100km with 1.5 Ä/l fuel price that means 1,05Ä/100km saving --> 1050Ä every saved every 100000km driven.


But also engine makes more max power, more low end torque so you can drive lower rpm and you dont have to downshift so often in uphills.


I would appreciate if you could say if you have different idle fuel consumption values and with what torsion value you are seeing those values?
You are a brave man. I wouldn't mess with it.

VW requires replacement diamond washer every time.

Drive ten percent slower to save the fuel.

Get it wrong and you will destroy an expensive engine.

The drive is gears. Im sure VW set it up perfectly. Torsion adjustments on 1.9tdi engines is for variances in belts.

Feel free to experiment and let us know what you find. I, for one, wouldn't mess with it, even if you find a gain in power and economy.

If you consider the frontal area, weight and awd drivetrain, the R5 is more economical than the 1.9tdi cars already.

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All vw/audi engines must use 507.00 spec oil except non-DPF R5/V10 engines that must use 505.01/506.01
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post #6 of 10 Old 09-19-2018 Thread Starter
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Measured fuel consumption 7.2l/100km and back direction 8.0l/100km.
Average 7.6l/100km.
Idle fuel consumption 1.1l/h
Torsio was little bit off from factory settings about -1,5 degrees


First adjustment done. When I tried to put the cam tool in place it would go it was about 3mm on the - value side. I calculated that I need to move the cam 9mm to + direction measured from the cam tool. So I moved the cam about 6mm past the oem hole position.
about 2mm movement was 1 degree in cam.



When taking cam main bolt off had little broblems as it was M16 xzn size which I needed to buy and second problem was the tool did not go deep enough so almost broke the bolt. But anyway its super tight to open.



Put everything back together. No big problems there. Biggest was to get about correct toque for the cam bolt as there is not much place. For next time need to buy a torque wrench which head tilts. On the first try job took about 5 hours to complete as tried to find tools etc. What I noticed that vag com does not show the torsion value in this engine so it still is in the -3,5 value. So it has moved but not to correct direction.


On next video moved it +5,0 degrees and fuel consumption got lower.
6,8l/100km and back direction 7,5l/100km, with ligths on
Average 7,15 l/100km
Savings 0,45l/100km
Idle fuel consumption 0.9 l/h



I made a comparison video to show how instant fuel consumption move and where the diffence comes from:
Fuel consumption comparison Touareg torsion +5,0 | vMASHUP - Create and Watch Youtube Video Mashups


At the moment it looks like fuel consumption will drop about half a liter at least. I think this is still not the best for this engine. Lowest value should be around 0.6l/h for the idle fuel consumption. I need to buy my own tool set as this time I borrowed them to get the job done. After I have found the best value I can make my own tool to get the correct cam setting for lowest fuel consumption faster.

2004 R5 2.5TDI with 6 speed manual gearbox trailer towing machine with modifications to lower fuel consumption.


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post #7 of 10 Old 09-19-2018
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You are a brave man doing this!

VW Touareg models are as follows:
Generation 1: T1 is model 7LA & facelift T2 is model 7L6
Generation 2: T3 is model 7P5 & facelift T4 is model 7P6
Generation 3: T5 is model CR7 [Not available in "VW Atlas" North America!]
Read Wikipedia:
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post #8 of 10 Old 01-20-2019
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Expreiments is a great idia, but still... Did you ever check the real consumtion from fuel stop to fuel stop before and after moving cam? EDC math is far away from it. I'cant realise why you move camshaft if the engine gets only one MUST BE alaignment optimal for both - torqe/power/fuel consumtion. By moving the cam you getting worse something, low torque or high power.
To do the experiment is fully aproved you should do at least three check points, low 1500 rpm torque fuel check, 2200 rmp max torque fuel check and 3200 rpm hi power test.
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post #9 of 10 Old 01-20-2019
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesa Tiainen View Post
What I noticed that vag com does not show the torsion value in this engine
It should, in MVB 004.4.
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post #10 of 10 Old 01-20-2019
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnits View Post
It should, in MVB 4.4.
Torsion in 4/4 isnt changing because all gears engaged and dont get adjustments. We can rotate the cam but gears still being on their places. So 4/4 window is useless on R5
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