VR6 - Timing chain problem - Club Touareg Forums
 
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post #1 of 10 Old 06-25-2016 Thread Starter
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VR6 - Timing chain problem

Hi All,

just to introduce me, my name is Florian and I am from germany and I am looking for some help with regards to my timing chain problem of the VR6 since I can not find any good help in german forums other then "Replace the engine"

My Touareg is from 2004 and has 241PS (Horsepower). It was running now for 118000 Kilometers / 73k Miles.
Just to be clear on some tasks, I did change my oil every 10k kilometers or in a period of 10 month, so what comes first will be done.

At arround 112000 kilometers I started my car in the morning and the yellow engine light was on. I was suprised, because I was not facing any issues with the car, simply the light was on. I was going to Volkswagen and they found 1 sporadic/intermittent error which they simply deleted. The guy said to me, if the light turns on again, I should come back.

There was nothing for about 1500 kilometers and, guess what, the light was on again. So again I was going to the same Volkswagen dealer, and we did actually the same as it was not a permanent error.

Ok, again there was nothing for about 1000 kilometers, then the light turned on again and I started to check in the internet about that, I found my german forums and also threads in here that it is a timing chain issue. Wow, for a car which is 12 years old and was running 73k miles.... frustrating. However, I started to investigate and in 90% of the cases, it was that the timing chain needs to be replaced and since the VW engine is lengthwise in the car, you need to pull it out, repair it and bring it back in.

The interesting thing about this is, that there is no unexpected noise. I was wachting videos on youtube for audi/touareg which had a timing chain issue and there is a clear which I dont have. I have been told to check the VW engine with a USB controller to check the (hopefully correct translated) reading blocks 208/209.
This does show the values for the camshaft and crankshaft. Both the values are -10
I have been told that this is not good at all and I will face some serious issues.

Anyway, I know the Option to do that which would be arround 3000 Euro in total qt Volkswagen, however, I got some advices that I could try one thing before pulling of the engine and that is the replacement of the "upper tensioner".

Normally, to fix the timing chain issue it is required to pull out the engine, however, some Audi owners told me, there is a chance to replace the upper tensioner without pulling out the engine. In case this one is broken and can be replaced, there is a small chance that the problem is resolved since the chain itself does not have the issue. In case that this was not helpfull, I know that the remaining option is to pull out the engine.

Actually I am looking for some feedback if it is possible to replace the part and if there is a chance that only this piece is broken and is causing the issue. Volkswagen told me that the other tensioner is sitting on the bottom of the engine and this is bad, the piece itself is quite cheap but getting the engine out is 5-6 hours

Looking forward for some answers,
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post #2 of 10 Old 06-25-2016
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The 3.2 engine was originally designed to be installed in front wheel drive cars and mounted East to West which would have made the timing chain more accessible.

In the Touareg it was turned through 90 degrees but installed South to North so, as you have discovered, the timing chain is at the rear of the engine.

If you can find a mechanic with very small hands, I understand the chain can be replaced without dropping the engine, otherwise it is an engine out job.

You are right about the upper tensioner. Some people have removed it, reprimed it in a container of engine oil, refitted it and all has been well.

Normally there is a clattering noise associated with a crap chain - the supplier did not replace tooling when they should have done so parts of the chain were poorly stamped out hence the timing chain issue which is, in fairness, known but not overly common.

Can you get the car on VCDS and get a read out of the faults?

I am wondering if the camshaft position sensor is the issue though, in fairness again, the car usually won't start when this fails.

VW Touareg models are as follows:
Generation 1: T1 is model 7LA & facelift T2 is model 7L6
Generation 2: T3 is model 7P5 & facelift T4 is model 7P6
Generation 3: T5 is model CR7 [Not available in "VW Atlas" North America!]
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post #3 of 10 Old 06-26-2016 Thread Starter
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I remember that there were 2 errors shown on vcds. P1347 and 17775(?)

P1347 is Bank2,Crankshaft -/ Camshaft os. Sens. Sign. Out of Sequence

I cant recall the other one but i have been told that this is the follow up error becuase of 1347.

Again what makes me wondering is the bad value of the cam/crankshaft position but there is no chain sound.

I think my next step would be to replace the upper tensioner and then check again 208/209 blocks.
Is there aomewhere a guide to perform this ?
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post #4 of 10 Old 09-21-2016 Thread Starter
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Hi there

to stick to this topic, still not resolved. I have been advised to replace or reprime the upper tensioner. I found the part number as 066109507D and got it from the local VW dealer for 25 euro.

At home, I opened the box and was suprised, since it looks that this is not built ?! THere was no manual or guide but looking at this makes me wondering as I understood that the bolt must be inside already and just move from the lowest point to the maxium point.

Can someone guide me if that item is correct or maybe broken?
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post #5 of 10 Old 09-28-2016
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It is just like a brake cylinder. Oil pressure charges it and it extends out to keep tension.

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post #6 of 10 Old 05-06-2017 Thread Starter
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I have an update on this, since I tried a few things on the engine - I have not removed it yet to replace the chain.

I ordered through a shop the new chain tensioner, it was easy to replace, took arround 15 minutes. The old one was not working properly, due to wearing, it was not fully working. When I compared them, I have seen that the new one was definetly longer than the old one. Additionally, it was very difficult to push the bolt insinde, the new one was absolutely fine.

However, this was not solving the issue, I guess it was good to replace this item, was about 25Ä, but the ECL comes up again and again after a certain time.

Next step was to use something I found in a german forum from some Audi drivers. They are facing the same issue for the 3.2 VR6 engine, and they found out that there is dirt in the camshaft adjuster (e.g. if someone extended the oilchange for more than 25k miles)

To clean up the engine, they use "Lambda oil primer" which can be orded in the UK. What they do is, prior to the oilchange, they fill 500ml of Lambda oil primer into the engine and drive arround with this for 20-40 miles and immediately afterwards, they replace the oil.

This product should makes the oil more thinn, hence it should also clean up the inside of the camshaft adjuster.
I did this as well in october 2016 and again in march 2017. My experience so far is - if I look into the engine, it looks cleaned up a little bit, the oil within the engine is not black directly after the oilchange, it now remains in the original colour of yellow/gold. I have also found out that my ECL does not come that often again.

I was recommened in that forum as well to stick to this and clean the engine during each oilchange, or I could do the heavy clean up solution which is:

1) Use Addinol (or Liqui moly) engine flush -> This product is so heavy that you are not allowed to drive with this if you add this to the oil
2) replace oil and filter
3) Use 750ML of lambda oilprimer -> do not drive just let the engine idle for 20 minutes
4) replace oil and filter
5) Use 500ml of lambda oilprimer -> drive arround a little bit for 15miles but ensure to move the engine also up to 6000 rpm

I have been told that the camshaft adjuster just work on certain rpm's because the adjust the camshaft to "Early" or "late" .... whatever that means.
6) replace oil and filter
7) Be happy .....

I have seen videos prior to this and afterwards and was comparing the engine sound and guess what - the chain nose was gone ... VCDS showed on the blocks 208/209 -1/-2 (Prior to this cleaning action it was -7/-10)

What do you guys think about this approach?
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post #7 of 10 Old 05-22-2017
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Naico View Post
I have an update on this, since I tried a few things on the engine - I have not removed it yet to replace the chain.

I ordered through a shop the new chain tensioner, it was easy to replace, took arround 15 minutes. The old one was not working properly, due to wearing, it was not fully working. When I compared them, I have seen that the new one was definetly longer than the old one. Additionally, it was very difficult to push the bolt insinde, the new one was absolutely fine.

However, this was not solving the issue, I guess it was good to replace this item, was about 25€, but the ECL comes up again and again after a certain time.

Next step was to use something I found in a german forum from some Audi drivers. They are facing the same issue for the 3.2 VR6 engine, and they found out that there is dirt in the camshaft adjuster (e.g. if someone extended the oilchange for more than 25k miles)

To clean up the engine, they use "Lambda oil primer" which can be orded in the UK. What they do is, prior to the oilchange, they fill 500ml of Lambda oil primer into the engine and drive arround with this for 20-40 miles and immediately afterwards, they replace the oil.

This product should makes the oil more thinn, hence it should also clean up the inside of the camshaft adjuster.
I did this as well in october 2016 and again in march 2017. My experience so far is - if I look into the engine, it looks cleaned up a little bit, the oil within the engine is not black directly after the oilchange, it now remains in the original colour of yellow/gold. I have also found out that my ECL does not come that often again.

I was recommened in that forum as well to stick to this and clean the engine during each oilchange, or I could do the heavy clean up solution which is:

1) Use Addinol (or Liqui moly) engine flush -> This product is so heavy that you are not allowed to drive with this if you add this to the oil
2) replace oil and filter
3) Use 750ML of lambda oilprimer -> do not drive just let the engine idle for 20 minutes
4) replace oil and filter
5) Use 500ml of lambda oilprimer -> drive arround a little bit for 15miles but ensure to move the engine also up to 6000 rpm

I have been told that the camshaft adjuster just work on certain rpm's because the adjust the camshaft to "Early" or "late" .... whatever that means.
6) replace oil and filter
7) Be happy .....

I have seen videos prior to this and afterwards and was comparing the engine sound and guess what - the chain nose was gone ... VCDS showed on the blocks 208/209 -1/-2 (Prior to this cleaning action it was -7/-10)

What do you guys think about this approach?
The correct value group range for the VR6 both 208 and 209 = +8.0 degrees KW to -8.0 degrees KW.

If field groups are less than -8.0KW (-9.0 to -14Kw) = replace upper timing chain as condition is related to elongated timing chain.

See Tech bulletin 15 07 03 dated 2007,2010614.

For Golf A4,JettaA4,R32andTouareg. 2002-2004 MIL on with DTCs P1347/17755 andP1340/17748
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post #8 of 10 Old 04-14-2018
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Hi Naico.
Do you still have the car?
Any updates on this?
Did you use the heavy cleanup solution?
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post #9 of 10 Old 05-12-2018
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRespect View Post
Hi Naico.
Do you still have the car?
Any updates on this?
Did you use the heavy cleanup solution?
I too was interested to see the results but was skeptical and haven't tried. I am skeptical because I see no relationship between camshaft adjustment and chain tension. The camshaft sensors are solenoid activated by the ECU and use oil pressure to perform variable cam angle adjustment for optimal timing. the chains are adjusted purely by hydraulic tensioners. It is possible that an engine cleanse could improve performance of the lower chain tensioner if sludge is or has kept it from operating properly. Cheaper than pulling the engine but also may not resolve a stretched chain.
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post #10 of 10 Old 05-12-2018
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G6mdxvct View Post

I too was interested to see the results but was skeptical and haven't tried. I am skeptical because I see no relationship between camshaft adjustment and chain tension. The camshaft sensors are solenoid activated by the ECU and use oil pressure to perform variable cam angle adjustment for optimal timing. the chains are adjusted purely by hydraulic tensioners. It is possible that an engine cleanse could improve performance of the lower chain tensioner if sludge is or has kept it from operating properly. Cheaper than pulling the engine but also may not resolve a stretched chain.
Meant to say camshaft adjusters are solenoid activated.
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