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How to measure 3.2 V6 timing chain stretch with VCDS.

81K views 63 replies 11 participants last post by  black_orion 
#1 ·
According to a french forum it could be possible to measure the timing chain stretch with VCDS.

Go into groups 208 and 209 at idle and note the 3rd value. Both should be between -6 and 6 AND the two values should not be further apart than 4.

In my case, both values is -6 and then the difference is 0. So it's borderline to stretched.

Can anyone confirm or do their own measurement?

I have my own theory about my values. The chain is not stretched, hence both is -6, but I should re-prime the tensioner to get the values closer to zero. Or it might be the other way around.
 

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#2 ·
Interesting. Not seen that before.
 
#4 ·
VW had a technical Bulletin 15 07 03 Jan 31 2007, 2010614 concerning MIL ON with DTCs P1347/17755 and P1340/17748 related to elongated timing chain. In VAS 5051/5052 if field 3 measurements in display group 208 and 209 are less than
-8.0 KW (-9.0 to -14.0 KW) and if both speed sensor and camshaft sensors are OK - Replace upper timing chain

Not certain how VAS relates to VcDs but as you indicated the stretched chain can be determined. Replacing the tensioner will not help if the condition is to advanced but for the cost of the tensioner would not hurt to try.
 
#6 ·
I have been driving my car for over six months with CEL on. My chain is stretched. I can hear it quite clearly until engine temp and oil temp are 200 F. After that no problem. Now that it has gotten really cold the noise is very noticeable at start up. Will have it corrected in the spring unless it gets worse. To mitigate am changing oil more often. If you are at -6 you should be able to hear your upper chain slapping around. It will sound like marbles rolling around in a can mid point of the upper dash. Don't think the tensioner will resolve the issue. You should be getting camshaft position correlation codes which are generally a good indicator of a stretched chain if the sensors are fine otherwise. If you are not getting the codes the tensioner may help. My bet and experience with same engine is the upper chain is stretched. Best thing for the 3.2L is to keep the oil fresh. Screw the manual, change oil at half the interval or no more than 3/4. It costs a lot less than pulling the engine to change the upper chain. To bad VW used an engine meant to be transversely mounted in the V6. OK if they left enough room between the firewall and block to change a damaged chain but no such luck.
 
#10 ·
I have 41K miles. Think my problem started with the upper tensioner. It was not extending properly and actually was slightly out of plumb. Not certain at what measurement you will start getting codes but at -6 imagine you may be getting close. Would think you could hear slightly. In any event if you start getting camshaft crankshaft correlation errors don't be so quick to replace. If the car starts and runs the crankshaft sensor is fine. If one of the crankshaft sensors goes bad you will know as the car will take noticeably longer to crank, or that is how it was for me.
 
#13 · (Edited)
Hello,
Can someone please help with measure blocks values for 208 & 209?
Also, group 90, 91 & 93.

Group 208 -5 deg KW
Group 209 -10 deg KW

Oh, and what does the count mean? I have 131 and 136????

See pictures below.

My wife said the car was really sluggish to drive today so I am not sure the tensioner and oil flush will work.

Thanks

Ben.
2004 v6 3.2 Touareg
230,000kms.
Using Penrite 5w/40 Fully Synthetic.
 

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#16 ·
Thanks. I work in the auto industry and a guy at work told me their engine calibrations usually cope with +/- 7 deg.

The vw limit on the tsb is +/'- 8 deg.

I am at -10 so I suspect this is causing me some performance issues.

Thanks.
When VW looked at my car MVD 208 & 209 field 3 measurement was blank. MVD 91 field 4 jumped from -3 to 2 degrees at idle . MVD field 90 field 4 read 0 at constant idle. They could not get basic setting 94 96 to run at moderating temp. VW suspected stretched cam chain. Brought the car in for hard cranking when hot. VW never figured out one of the camshaft sensors quit sending a signal when it got hot. Anyway car is running fine but am taking a risk driving in the current condition. Doubt the chain will snap but it is possible the guides could break. Car runs great at operating temp. Can barely tell it is on at idle.
 
#17 ·
Funny you should say field 3 went blank.

Today I went for a drive with the laptop and vcds logging function.
At start up I had -10 deg kw and i cleared the crank/cam correlation code.
Then after 5 minutes driving it went blank.
When I got home and exported the .csv to excel I saw that it went from -10 then -11 for a few times, then -12. Then it went blank.

I then did oil flush and put the new tensioner in. It rattled at startup ?? and then went quiet. I only soaked it for about 5 minutes in oil so I suspect it may have had an air bubble in it. I'll be more careful next time!

Bottom line is that it didn't fix it. I still have -5 deg and -10 deg.
 
#18 ·
Funny you should say field 3 went blank.

Today I went for a drive with the laptop and vcds logging function.
At start up I had -10 deg kw and i cleared the crank/cam correlation code.
Then after 5 minutes driving it went blank.
When I got home and exported the .csv to excel I saw that it went from -10 then -11 for a few times, then -12. Then it went blank.

I then did oil flush and put the new tensioner in. It rattled at startup dde30dde28 and then went quiet. I only soaked it for about 5 minutes in oil so I suspect it may have had an air bubble in it. I'll be more careful next time!

Bottom line is that it didn't fix it. I still have -5 deg and -10 deg.
Sorry to hear. The start up noise after replacing the tensioner is common especially with an oil change. I was very careful with my tensioner soaked it, primed it and had same noise at first start up. Generally even when you don't have a chain issue if you listen carefully at start up there will be some chain noise until the oil pressure builds up. The tensioner cylinder is fed by a pretty small hole so a little time is needed at start up before the tensioner pushes on the chain guide removing slack. To bad VW did not make a way to mechanically adjust the tension when they decided to mount the engine inline vs transverse. Sure would have been cheaper to correct and not require pulling the engine. Seen some discussion that it may be possible to replace the upper chain without pulling, however not a lot of room to work and would require small hands patience, and luck.
 
#19 · (Edited)
I got my car back from the mechanic yesterday after getting the timing chain, guides and 2 sprockets replaced.

Result : better idle, smoother power delivery (especially mid-range), no chain rattle, No fault code.

MEASURE BLOCKS GROUP 93 :
Old values : - 5 deg , - 10 deg
New values : -2 deg, - 6 deg
Specification : (+/- 8 deg)

Does anyone else have timing values after the chain has been replaced?
Should it be closer to 0 deg. ?

Thanks, Ben
 
#29 ·
I got my car back from the mechanic yesterday after getting the timing chain, guides and 2 sprockets replaced.

Result : better idle, smoother power delivery (especially mid-range), no chain rattle, No fault code.

MEASURE BLOCKS GROUP 93 :
Old values : - 5 deg , - 10 deg
New values : -2 deg, - 6 deg
Specification : (+/- 8 deg)

Does anyone else have timing values after the chain has been replaced?
Should it be closer to 0 deg. ?

Thanks, Ben
Did they replace the sprockets on the camshafts or the two at the oil pump? Glad to see you got squared away. I still haven't done mine. Have clear rattle but goes away completely when oil temp gets to about 150F. Winter performance is not great until car warms up, no issue when warm. Will probably get fixed in spring.
 
#23 ·
Generally the codes received are result of an elongated/stretched chain if the camshaft sensors and speed sensor are OK. Measuring group 93 will tell the story. In my case could clear the codes and they would come back pretty much after a few minutes of running. At your mileage would bet it is upper timing chain, but not a certainty.
 
#25 ·
Try this :
Wait till engine cools off
Ignition ON - do not start yet
Use VCDS to clear codes.
Open up measure blocks 208 / 209 and/or 93.
Start engine
Observe values for 5 minutes

-10 deg is definitely bad.
You just want to see what the other value is.

I was logging values whilst driving and it went from -10 to -13 then went blank so my theory is that it warms up and goes out of the limits.

How does your Touareg drive , accelerate ? Does it idle OK?

I just had the timing chain replaced and it's much better.
 
#26 ·
Ok I try it after engine cool down.

I still hope that is just bad sensor, because change timing chain should be expensive thing :( engine must go out of car right?
What engine oil you use? And how often you change it? I use Shell Helix Ultra 5W-40 and how I should change it is over 15k. Should help change fresh oil now?

Hmm drive on Treg is I think normal, I never before ride 3.2 engine in touareg, that I dont know if accelerate is OK, sometimes I have feeling that on gang 5 and 6 is car lazy. When I ride 4.2 Treg that it be really stronger on gang 5, 6. But 4.2 have 60kW more, that I think this should be OK.
And other things the engine sound on N is OK, when rpm is arround 600-700, no shaky. I hear no crashing timing chain.

Thanks
 
#28 ·
I measure on cold engine and first picture is my values, on second picture is values my frend Treg 4.2 (he have more bad values than me? or 4.2 have other group for measure?) I forgotten to write, start (cold or warm) is OK when is timing on engine bad that could be problem sometimes with start engine no? And engine light (error light) is show after 4-5 starts, I think no matter how far I drive.
 

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#31 ·
I don't know about the 4.2.

You say that the engine light comes on after 4 or 5 starts........I am sure the fault code would appear straight away after 1st starts.

I think it's not a issue that relates to number of starts but you'll probably find the engine light would have come on anyway after some driving on the 1st start (heat in metal components, oil temp, time, etc)

Your values are definitely worse than mine but your engine has done more kms.
 
#34 ·
Pretty certain you need to replace the upper chain. The camshaft sensors only tell the ECU the position of the camshafts. Can't compare 4.2 values with the 3.2. I believe the v8 uses a belt vs chain for timing. My chain only makes noise ( sounds like marbles rolling around in a can). When car is not at operating temperature at idle and accelerating. On the back of the block there is a centrifuge that turns oil vapor back to oil drops. The camshaft chain is directly below. Take a long screwdriver hold against the centrifuge and put your ear to the handle, or if you have a stethoscope. If you can't hear now or only slightly it will get worse with time.
 
#35 ·
I just do not want to believe that it can be really the bad timing chain, because sound of my car is really good, start of engine (cold, warm) is OK, acceleration I hope is OK. When someone have stretched chain than could have problem with start engine and have scratch sound from chain back of engine or?
I try to record sound of my engine: https://www.dropbox.com/s/6r42uhekkdxibe8/MOV_0162.mp4?dl=0
I'll try record better sound from back of engine.
 
#36 ·
I had (have) similar problem. Much research shows left bank cam tensioner gear was not heat treated to spec on production. Right apparently is OK. Result left gear wears much faster than right, leading to misalignment between cams. Once this reaches beyond the capabilities of the tensioner system then cold operations mean noise and engine DTC. Once warm tensioner system catches up and runs normal. Fix = replace both gears, timing chains and chain riders. Engine out, or at least lifted and work on the top! Not easy. Lots of special tools required. I gave it to VAG garage, cost me 3500 USD. This is a well documented production fault, but you have to dig it up.
Bad news is 12 months later, noise is back! They must have done a dodgy job. I will try a flush and a new hydraulic tensioner. If that fails then I will drive it till it goes bang and tourch it. Watch utube for the video. I have had every major TReg ailment and managed to fix them all myself, but this one is the straw that broke the camels back. My advice if you have a TReg, sell it! They have the worst design and production faults of any car since Moscovitch went bankrupt! German reliability my shiny metal arse! Even the French make better cars than VW pump out these days.
You can't polish a turd, trust me, I have tried!
 
#37 ·
Hi
I have put together some photos of the timing chain replacement. There's 10 slides.
Thanks
Ben
 

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#39 ·
Great slides. Since you have the engine out have you considered replacing the camshaft adjusters? It makes sense with the engine out to replace both upper and lower chain, but is it necessary to do both to correct the timing issue? Generally VW will replace everything and hit you up for new adjusters , too, but their TB on the issue indicates replace upper chain vs everything on the tail end.
 
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