Club Touareg Forum banner

VW TDI EPA Recall (2.0L and 3.0L)

2M views 13K replies 494 participants last post by  YALCIN 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
#8,132 ·
Hello Club Touareg,

I've been lurking this forum for awhile but this is my first post.

I browsed through this thread but at 800+ pages I obviously haven't read all of it.

I found a 2013 TDI that I am seriously considering buying. The price is very good and I usually keep my vehicles for awhile so I am not concerned about depreciation. From what I read I know that starting in 2013 the 3.0tdi was updated with different turbos, fuel pump, etc.

Is it safe to assume that the 2013+ engines will be able to be fixed instead of being bought back? If there was a buy-back and I refused will I still be able to register the car? (emissions aren't an issue in NYS inspection, car just needs to pass a ODBII scan).

Lastly I saw a few pages back that when the fix is applied the cars warranty will be extended and the owner will receive a payment from VW. What is the reasoning for this credit and does anyone have a guess on the amount? I can only assume its because after the fix your car is no longer the one you purchased originally.

Thanks for the help
 
#8,142 ·
Is it safe to assume that the 2013+ engines will be able to be fixed instead of being bought back? If there was a buy-back and I refused will I still be able to register the car? (emissions aren't an issue in NYS inspection, car just needs to pass a ODBII scan).
It's safe to assume nothing until a final decision is made. Other than internet BS there are no official confirmations that the 13+ engines can be fixed. Until the courts approve a fix, there is no fix.

Remember this is the same company that was telling us it was a 2.0l engine only issue 15 months ago.
 
#8,133 ·
At a cars n coffee event a few weeks ago at the local Porsche dealer, one of the management staffers, and a guy I've known for many years, gave me an opinion that for Gen 2 TDI's the software fix was simple. I don't recall the exact details, but the gist of it was that the original software code on Gen 2 TDI's was written not to evade emission testing but to allow for less Diesel engine clatter during warmup. Once the engine was warm, the engine reverted to an emissions compliant mode. So he said the software fix would be easy to implement.

Bear in mind, this was one man's opinion related to you by a fallible source (me).
 
#8,139 ·
^^That (the acoustic function) is a small part of the problem. There was also a 20 minute timer that was hooked to a dyno detect software that was found on the 3.0 liter TDI. That function also has to be removed from the software. Once both are removed, the TDI should stay in EPA emission mode at all times.

From a programmers view point it looked like:
.
If the steering wheel is centered and not moved + the engine has been running for a total of less then 20 minutes then turn on full EPA emissions mode.

Otherwise run in max performance, ie non-EPA emission mode.
To expand on the above, if the EPA jiggled the steering wheel during the dyno tests or if they ran the test for 40 minutes....

Well we can just say that Mama EPA was not happy at the test results that she started seeing coming out of the VW tailpipe.>:)
If the fix was that simple and it does not effect performance, dependability, or mileage - why'd the continue to cheat?
 
#8,134 ·
^^That (the acoustic function) is a small part of the problem. There was also a 20 minute timer that was hooked to a dyno detect software that was found on the 3.0 liter TDI. That function also has to be removed from the software. Once both are removed, the TDI should stay in EPA emission mode at all times.

From a programmers view point it looked like:
.
If the steering wheel is centered and not moved + the engine has been running for a total of less then 20 minutes then turn on full EPA emissions mode.

Otherwise run in max performance, ie non-EPA emission mode.
 
#8,135 ·
To expand on the above, if the EPA jiggled the steering wheel during the dyno tests or if they ran the test for 40 minutes....

Well we can just say that Mama EPA was not happy at the test results that she started seeing coming out of the VW tailpipe.>:)
 
#8,140 ·
^^The fix will affect stuff.

Draw a triangle, Really do it, it will help. Now label one side Max MPG, the next side Low Emissions, and the last side Max HP/Torque. This is what we are playing with. Put a dot anywhere on the triangle. Look at where it is. Move the dot and see where you are. Notice that you can max out two of the three, but you can NEVER have all three at the same time in a TDI engine!

Why? Because you canna change the laws of physics cap'n!

But, sometime you can cheat.

Adding urea (ad-blue) in the exhaust is a cheat, as you can do this without changing the way the engine is running. So, if the fix is only to add more ad-blue, we might be able to not affect MPG/Mileage/Power triangle of the engine.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, the best info that we had was the Porsche leak leak last February that in their opinion, all that was needed for the Porsche 3.0 was a new catalytic converter and a software update.

What we never noted in this forum, at that time was... when did Porsche start selling North American TDIs? 2013! And this is a very very important fact that was missed.

So, adding in the missing piece of the puzzle. According to Porsche the second generation TDI only needed a new catalytic converter and a software update.

The Feb Porsche statement never mentioned the first generation 3.0... which has been declared un-fixable and will only be offered a buyback option.
 
#8,143 ·
#8,148 ·
I had spent some time last night reading the "decree", which everyone but the judge has signed which to me means it is about a done-deal.

VW admits it can't fix the Gen1, 2009-2012 3.0L TDI's either timely, or without excessive modification and thus, must offer a buyback/lease termination.

We get 11/2015 NADA Clean Retail (+or- mileage), plus the state+local taxes it was registered in for that month, plus $720 just because we are awesome.

The decree states that the buyback must commence within 30 days after the final order is signed so it should start at the end of February at the latest.

All the details are here, it is worth a read:

https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2016-12/documents/30literpartialconsentdecree.pdf


I am looking at $39,182.50.
 
#8,152 ·
I had spent some time last night reading the "decree", which everyone but the judge has signed which to me means it is about a done-deal.

VW admits it can't fix the Gen1, 2009-2012 3.0L TDI's either timely, or without excessive modification and thus, must offer a buyback/lease termination.

We get 11/2015 NADA Clean Retail (+or- mileage), plus the state+local taxes it was registered in for that month, plus $720 just because we are awesome.

The decree states that the buyback must commence within 30 days after the final order is signed so it should start at the end of February at the latest.

All the details are here, it is worth a read:

https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2016-12/documents/30literpartialconsentdecree.pdf

I am looking at $39,182.50.
Are you estimating additional "restitution" in your calculation?
 
#8,160 ·
Does anyone have a copy of the November 2015 NADA Used Car Guide for our Tregs?

According to the court document released this will be what is used to determine the "Base Value". From there all of us should be able to determine roughly what we can expect from the buyback.
 
#8,163 ·
Letter I just got from my Dealer:

As a valued TDI Touareg owner I wanted to update you on the latest news regarding the emissions of the 3.0L TDI engine. As of December 20th VW and the government reached an agreement regarding the 83,000 affected 3.0L TDI vehicles in the US. The proposed Consent Decree would recall 63,000 affected 2013-2016 (Gen 1) vehicles to bring them into compliance with the emissions standards to which they were certified. VW would follow suit by offering a buyback or if approved an emissions modification for the 2009-2012 (Gen 1) vehicles. They also plan to spend $250 million in environmental remediation solely for the 3.0L TDI.

The proposed Consent Decree will only become effective after it receives Court approval, which at the earliest will occur during the spring of 2017. The court has set a deadline of Jan. 31, 2017 for the parties to submit a formal agreement to the Court. The remaining details remain confidential and part of the gag order surrounding the settlement.

Based on what we have learned with the 2.0L settlement I would not expect buybacks to start before the middle of 2017 and I would suspect the structure to be similar is offering NADA trade-in value as of November 2015 plus 20% restitution for current owners who owned the vehicle prior to Nov. 9, 2015. For lessees and those who choose the emissions modification I would expect the restitution to be 10-20% for Gen 1 vehicles. It is unclear what compensation will be offered to Gen 2 owners at this time.

Thank you for your patience in this matter. We know that it has been a longtime since any news regarding this was released. We will continue to update you as we know more. If you do not want to receive any additional emails please reply back as so.

For updated TDI news we are continuing to update our page at: www.emichvw.com/vw-tdi-diesel-information
 
#8,168 ·
Reading the last few threads two things come to mind:

1. Don't count your chickens until they're hatched - VW continues to work on a fix for these vehicles, and the core issue with emmissions on these is the cold start strategy - we don't have a nox trap disaster
2. Nothing has happened until it has happened - until a judge signs something, it's just a bunch of paperwork floating around and carries zero legal authority. I've learned from experience far too many times that something I though I had in the bag, ended up falling through.

Just my own point of view looking at this as an observer without any skin in the game at the moment.
 
  • Like
Reactions: alfissimo
#8,170 ·
Reading the last few threads two things come to mind:

1. Don't count your chickens until they're hatched - VW continues to work on a fix for these vehicles, and the core issue with emmissions on these is the cold start strategy - we don't have a nox trap disaster
2. Nothing has happened until it has happened - until a judge signs something, it's just a bunch of paperwork floating around and carries zero legal authority. I've learned from experience far too many times that something I though I had in the bag, ended up falling through.

It has also been very telling to me that the 3.0L decree has come so fast as the 2.0 has to be the precedent for the 3.0 to follow.
Just my own point of view looking at this as an observer without any skin in the game at the moment.
It is true, to not count on anything until the good Judge Breyer puts his ink on the final decree but, and here comes the but-as both parties have signed, it signifies that neither of them disagrees with it and more than likely the judge will go along with it as there is nothing in the decree that would make him not agree to what both parties agree to. Has one seen how many people from both sides signed that decree? For one to think that the judge is all of a sudden say "Ok, I don't like this or that, while y'all might like it, I don't, fix it!" I doubt that will happen.

It is telling that for the Gen1 motors, VW has agreed or admitted that they don't have a fix that will be either timely or without substantial modification(s) for the motors-hence the buyback(s). The point having been made over and over and over again that if VW had some easy software fix, they would not have been giving out goodwill $$$ and going through all these motions that again, cost big $$$ if it were a simple fix.

It is also very telling in how fast the 3.0L decree has been hammered out as the 2.0L decision has to be the easy precedent that has been set. All the systems for the 2.0L buyback are already in place for the 3.0L to start 30 days after the final decree is signed.

VW says they can fix the Gen2 motors but has left themselves or have been provided with an "out" in case they can't.

My money is the judge signs the decree this month.
 
#8,171 ·
Email received from VW Canada

I received the following email from VW Canada this morning:

Dear Dave,
You are receiving this email because you have been identified by Volkswagen or Audi as an owner or lessee of a 2.0-litre TDI (diesel) vehicle that may be included in the proposed nationwide Volkswagen/Audi 2.0-Litre TDI (Diesel) Emissions Class Action Settlement in Canada, or you have provided your contact information to lawyers for vehicle owners and lessees in the Class Actions.
The proposed settlement, if approved by the Courts in Ontario and Quebec, applies to those vehicle owners or lessees nationwide who qualify as settlement class members.
RECEIPT OF THIS EMAIL DOES NOT MEAN THAT YOU ARE A SETTLEMENT CLASS MEMBER OR THAT YOU WILL BE ENTITLED TO RECEIVE BENEFITS FROM THE SETTLEMENT. IF YOU ARE A SETTLEMENT CLASS MEMBER, YOU WILL BE BOUND BY THE SETTLEMENT UNLESS YOU EXCLUDE YOURSELF BY OPTING OUT.
Please click the URL below to learn if the proposed settlement may affect your legal rights. The link will take you to a Court-approved notice with important information about your options if you are a settlement class member, including the right to opt out of or object to the proposed settlement:
LEGAL NOTICE
The above URL is coded for your specific email address. Please DO NOT forward this message. Additional information is available on the official settlement website https://www.VWCanadaSettlement.ca. Information for contacting the lawyers for vehicle owners and lessees is available here https://www.vwcanadasettlement.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Exhibit-3-Long-Form-Notice-1.pdf


Funny thing is I don't own a 2.0 TDI and never have. I did register for the goodwill $$ last year and received my cards. This is of course for my Touareg TDI. Nice of them to confuse matters and send the above email.
 
#8,182 ·
I received the following email from VW Canada this morning:

Dear Dave,
You are receiving this email because you have been identified by Volkswagen or Audi as an owner or lessee of a 2.0-litre TDI (diesel) vehicle that may be included in the proposed nationwide Volkswagen/Audi 2.0-Litre TDI (Diesel) Emissions Class Action Settlement in Canada, or you have provided your contact information to lawyers for vehicle owners and lessees in the Class Actions.
The proposed settlement, if approved by the Courts in Ontario and Quebec, applies to those vehicle owners or lessees nationwide who qualify as settlement class members.
RECEIPT OF THIS EMAIL DOES NOT MEAN THAT YOU ARE A SETTLEMENT CLASS MEMBER OR THAT YOU WILL BE ENTITLED TO RECEIVE BENEFITS FROM THE SETTLEMENT. IF YOU ARE A SETTLEMENT CLASS MEMBER, YOU WILL BE BOUND BY THE SETTLEMENT UNLESS YOU EXCLUDE YOURSELF BY OPTING OUT.
Please click the URL below to learn if the proposed settlement may affect your legal rights. The link will take you to a Court-approved notice with important information about your options if you are a settlement class member, including the right to opt out of or object to the proposed settlement:
LEGAL NOTICE
The above URL is coded for your specific email address. Please DO NOT forward this message. Additional information is available on the official settlement website https://www.VWCanadaSettlement.ca. Information for contacting the lawyers for vehicle owners and lessees is available here https://www.vwcanadasettlement.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Exhibit-3-Long-Form-Notice-1.pdf

Funny thing is I don't own a 2.0 TDI and never have. I did register for the goodwill $$ last year and received my cards. This is of course for my Touareg TDI. Nice of them to confuse matters and send the above email.
Hey there, I'm a Canadian owner Touareg owner too and got the same email. VW Canada would know I only own the 3.0 TDI and as I've never owned another VW in my life I was immediately suspicious. I work in the IT industry and am always wary of imbedded links for potential viruses or malware. Sure enough, if you hover on the links provided, and the original email address, you will see it doesn't correspond to what was provided. This is known as a Phishing email and would likely lead to a site that would introduce a virus or prompt you for personal information. Delete it from your email account and flag it as spam to your provider.
Sorry - this was in response to Scubacruiser's note regarding the email from VW Canada earlier today

It seems it never takes too long for scammers to find an opportunity
 
#8,177 ·
More like, "if they're going to hand out free money, I'm going to make sure I'm in line when they do."
 
  • Like
Reactions: lml999
#8,179 ·
I certainly don't see waiting any amount of time after buybacks begin as I would just prefer to move on. I have been very happy with our 12 Touareg with the exception of DEF pump failure immediately after our 4 year service. VW did take care of it as "goodwill" after I expressed my displeasure. Even so, it raises concerns related to keeping it or replacing with another diesel. That being said I know plenty of people who have had cars that they considered lemons and had long arduous fights dealing with them.
 
#8,180 ·
Hey there, I'm a Canadian owner Touareg owner too and got the same email. VW Canada would know I only own the 3.0 TDI and as I've never owned another VW in my life I was immediately suspicious. I work in the IT industry and am always wary of imbedded links for potential viruses or malware. Sure enough, if you hover on the links provided, and the original email address, you will see it doesn't correspond to what was provided. This is known as a Phishing email and would likely lead to a site that would introduce a virus or prompt you for personal information. Delete it from your email account and flag it as spam to your provider.
 
#8,183 ·
If this is the case, was VW Canada hacked for the information?
 
#8,190 ·
Clark Griswold is that you?
 
#8,191 ·
Regarding the 3.0L TDI settlement

From a link provided by my dealer showing the current status of the 3.0L TDI settlement.

https://www.vwcourtsettlement.com/en/proposed-3-0l-tdi-recall-program/


Volkswagen AG has reached a resolution with the United States Department of Justice (DOJ) on behalf of the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and the State of California by and through the California Air Resources Board (CARB) and the California Attorney General to resolve civil claims of these parties regarding eligible Volkswagen, Audi, and Porsche 3.0L TDI diesel engine vehicles in the United States. Of approximately 80,000 3.0L TDL vehicles that were produced for sale in the United States, approximately 22,000 Volkswagen, 47,000 Audi vehicles, and 11,000 Porsche vehicles are currently in use. Certain vehicles are eligible for buybacks or lease terminations while others are eligible for emissions modifications, if approved by regulators, and if modifications are not approved, these vehicles will be eligible for buybacks or lease terminations.

The agreement covering the proposed 3.0L TDI recall program is subject to the approval of Judge Charles R. Breyer of the United States District Court for the Northern District of California, who presides over the federal Multi-District Litigation (MDL) proceedings related to the diesel matter.

Volkswagen has also reached agreement with the Court-appointed Plaintiffs’ Steering Committee (PSC) on substantial aspects of the relief that consumer class members will receive, and the parties are working to resolve the remaining issues. We are committed to earning back the trust of all our stakeholders and thank our customers and dealers for their patience as the process moves forward. We are restricted by the Court’s confidentiality order from providing details about the settlement discussions between Volkswagen and the Plaintiffs’ Steering Committee. We will provide more information as soon as we are able. The Court has scheduled a status conference on Thursday December 22 at 11am Pacific for the parties to report on progress towards a resolution. Proposed 3.0L TDI Recall Program

This settlement applies to all 3.0 Liter (6-cylinder) “TDI” diesels that Volkswagen, Audi, or Porsche marketed or sold in the U.S. for model years 2009 through 2016. The vehicles are divided into two Generations, as follows:

Generation 1 Vehicles

Model

Model Years

Volkswagen Touareg

2009-2012

Audi Q7

2009-2012


Generation 2 Vehicles

Model

Model Years

Volkswagen Touareg

2013-2016

Audi Q7

2013-2015

Audi A6, A7, A8, A8L, Q5

2014-2016

Porsche Cayenne Diesel

2013-2016


Subject to Court approval of the proposed 3.0L TDI recall program, Volkswagen has agreed, among other terms, to:

Offer buyback or lease terminations of eligible Generation 1 3.0L vehicles, and provide free emissions modifications (if approved by the EPA and CARB) that will substantially reduce emissions for Generation 1 vehicles.

Provide free emissions modifications (if approved by EPA and CARB) to bring eligible Generation 2 3.0L vehicles into compliance with their Certified Exhaust Emission Standards. If Volkswagen is unable to perform emissions modifications that meet Certified Exhaust Emission Standards, then Volkswagen must offer to buy back or terminate the leases of eligible Generation 2 3.0L vehicles and may also seek approval to offer an emissions modification to substantially reduce emissions.

Volkswagen will also pay $225 million into an environmental trust, managed by a trustee appointed by the Court, to remediate excess nitrogen oxide (NOx) emissions from 3.0L TDI vehicles.

Volkswagen will also pay $25 million to CARB to promote the use of non-polluting vehicles and will undertake efforts to support the use of zero emissions vehicles (ZEV) and non-polluting Battery Electric Vehicles (BEV), including the introduction of three new non-polluting BEVs in California and a Green City initiative, which may include the operation of ZEV car sharing services, zero emission transit applications, and zero emission freight transit projects.

For Generation 2 vehicles, Volkswagen expects that it can bring the vehicles to the same Tier 2/Bin 5 emissions standard to which the vehicles were originally certified and that applies generally to all manufacturers of light duty vehicles certified at this standard. Provided Volkswagen obtains necessary approval from the regulators, the settlement does not require Volkswagen to offer buyback or lease termination for the Generation 2 vehicles that can be made fully emissions compliant. If Volkswagen cannot gain regulatory approval of this Emissions Compliant Recall, then it must offer the buyback and lease termination, and may also seek approval to offer an emissions modification to reduce emissions.

Volkswagen will begin the settlement program as soon as the Court grants final approval of the settlement agreement. At the earliest, approval will occur in the spring of 2017. Consumers with eligible vehicles do not need to contact Volkswagen, Audi, Porsche, or their dealers, at this time. Individual consumers will receive extensive notification of their rights and options if the Court grants approval of the recall program.
 
#8,193 ·
  • Like
Reactions: nickm
#8,197 ·
At least according to the 12/22/2016 Second Decree, both parties had signed off, and VW had/has admitted that it cannot fix the Gen1 motors, 2009-2012, in either a timely or without substantial modification so they will be bought back if the owners want, or the owners can drive them if they so choose.

Gen2-VW thinks they can modify them but owners will still get money no matter what as the perceived value is such that since VW has admitted to cheating, they now need to pay up.
 
#8,199 ·
I purchased a "VW Drive Easy Program" 7-year extended warranty (underwritten by Fidelity) when I purchased my 2012 Touareg Executive new. I have not made any claims on this contract. Does anyone know how VW is going to handle extended warranties?
 
#8,200 ·
I'm thinking it should be considered another factory options, it should be paid out in restitution. Like tech, heated wheel, hitch, RSE, you purchased - invested in - this Touareg as a keeper, and should be paid toward the max offered as restitution.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top