Hydrogen Assist Fuel Cells - Page 4

lzvagias · 07-23-2008

So back to the thread topic as to whether or not these things work. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I work with a guy that that did buy one of these kits. I can't remember the website but I'll get it from him again and post it here, but he finally got it installed in his truck (a Ford F250 I think). He commutes about 40 miles a day to work and recorded his mileage before the installation and said that he will have the post installation results at the end of the week. He installed it last weekend and topped off his tank Monday morning and said he'll let me know when he has emptied it. I think he said that he was getting about 18 mpg, I asked him today if he noticed any difference in economy and/ or power. I didn't really expect him to say yes to either but he said yes to both! He said that there is a notable gain in horsepower and he said he can already tell that he is getting better gas mileage! He said it's too soon to tell exactly how much better the milage is but he estimated about 10mpg! The kit said that an increase of up to 40% was possible but he believes that he might have even be getting better than that. Now this wasn't one of those kits that was made from crap purchased at Ace hardware (although they might work just as well) this one was about $500 and was very nicely put together and did come with a money back guarantee. If this thing worked at all it would be great but if it actually does meet or excede the 40% improvement (and it appears that it will) that's pretty damn exciting! I'll let you know when the results are in.

new2touareg · 07-23-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by lzvagias

So back to the thread topic as to whether or not these things work. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I work with a guy that that did buy one of these kits. I can't remember the website but I'll get it from him again and post it here, but he finally got it installed in his truck (a Ford F250 I think). He commutes about 40 miles a day to work and recorded his mileage before the installation and said that he will have the post installation results at the end of the week. He installed it last weekend and topped off his tank Monday morning and said he'll let me know when he has emptied it. I think he said that he was getting about 18 mpg, I asked him today if he noticed any difference in economy and/ or power. I didn't really expect him to say yes to either but he said yes to both! He said that there is a notable gain in horsepower and he said he can already tell that he is getting better gas mileage! He said it's too soon to tell exactly how much better the milage is but he estimated about 10mpg! The kit said that an increase of up to 40% was possible but he believes that he might have even be getting better than that. Now this wasn't one of those kits that was made from crap purchased at Ace hardware (although they might work just as well) this one was about $500 and was very nicely put together and did come with a money back guarantee. If this thing worked at all it would be great but if it actually does meet or excede the 40% improvement (and it appears that it will) that's pretty damn exciting! I'll let you know when the results are in.

I heard a called on Clark Howard show the other day who bought this after seeing a news on it TV. Now this guy said he could not fit it as one of the piece required to install it was broken and he is expecting a new one soon.

lzvagia keep us posted on the results. Honestly it sounds too good to be true.

lzvagias · 07-25-2008

I know, it does sound incredible but the concept has been proven already.

YouTube - Stan Meyer - Water Fuel Cell

The most incredible thing about it is that the video is old as crap and he was running the car totally off of hydrogen. He had a tank that held water and generated hydrogen on board the car way back then! When you consider that the kits are only supplementing it seams pretty reasonable. We'll see, I'll let you know as soon as I find out the results.

**spockcat** · 08-05-2008

Here is a little science why it won't work:

Why on-board hydrogen generators won't boost your mileage - AutoblogGreen

Why on-board hydrogen generators won't boost your mileage

Posted Aug 4th 2008 at 11:50AM by Sam Abuelsamid

Historically whenever gas prices have gone up, charlatans have come out of the woodwork offering drivers all manner of devices that are claimed to provide dramatic reductions in fuel consumption. From magnets that are clamped to fuel lines, to assorted vacuum advance devices, and intake vortex generators and magical carburetors none of these have actually been demonstrated to work. Many of these old school devices can still be found, but one of the most popular new devices is the on-board hydrogen generator and injection system.

The basic premise is that injecting hydrogen into the intake stream will displace some of the gasoline required, reducing both gasoline consumption and emissions. Just have hydrogen and injecting it will actually achieve this result since the hydrogen burns and produces only water and trace amounts of NOx (although much lower than gasoline or diesel engines). Burning more hydrogen means less gasoline is consumed. Easy right? Not so fast there buddy! Where does that hydrogen come from? The marketers out there are selling on-board hydrogen generators which are claimed to provide enough hydrogen to reduce gas consumption by 30-40 percent or more. Is this plausible? Not even close. Read on after the jump to find out why.

[Sources: Wikipedia, Hypertextbook.com, answers.com]
Electrolysis of water is a process that's been known for over two centuries. It's not complicated, just stick a pair of electrodes into water and pass a current through them. Oxygen bubbles will be produced on one electrode and hydrogen on the other. Unfortunately as with all such processes it isn't 100 percent efficient. Some of the electrical energy put into the system is lost as heat. The process has gotten better over the years but it is still about 70 percent efficient at best.

If you convert 1 US gallon of water to hydrogen by electrolysis it will yield 420.6 g of hydrogen (H2 gas). If the electrolysis is 100% efficient it will take 16.821 kWh of electricity to crack 1 gallon of water. That 420 g of H2 only has an energy density of 14 kWh (33.3 kWh/kg * .4206). That's 16% more energy to crack the water than you get out of it. At 70 percent efficiency that means it would take about 24 kWh of input energy to produce hydrogen with 14 kWh of energy output.

To electrolyze water on the fly means the energy has to come from the engine via the alternator. Whatever electricity the alternator produces has to come from mechanical energy to drive it via the belt from the engine. That means the 24 kWh of energy will ultimately come from the engine while only 14 kWh will get put back in. As a result of this parasitic loss, on board hydrogen generation is an energy negative process that will actually reduce the total fuel efficiency of the vehicle because the load on the engine will be increased.

The only way that the fuel consumption of the vehicle can be reduced by hydrogen injection is to produce the hydrogen outside of the vehicle and store it as a gas on board. The total energy requirement doesn't change but off board generation opens up the possibility of using renewable sources like solar and wind to power the electrolysis.

With all of those companies selling on board electrolysis systems claiming to reduce fuel consumption there have even been news reports claiming these systems work. The answer to this is cheating. Ask any veteran NASCAR mechanic about places to store extra fuel on board a car. The same thing is being done by these scam artists. They are using stored hydrogen somewhere on board to make it seem as though their systems are beneficial.

Hydrogen injection is fine as a stop-gap but the hydrogen must be produced outside the vehicle. If home electrolysis systems or hydrogen filling stations are readily available, existing cars could fairly easily be retro-fitted with injection systems to reduce gasoline consumption. In India they are already experimenting with vehicles fueled by hythane (a blend of natural gas and hydrogen) but that is produced and sold that way.

The bottom line is don't waste your money on these devices. Want to save money and use less fuel? Drive less, consolidate trips, drive less aggressively.

jfmador · 09-15-2008

Hello there, I read spokecat post and previous post talking about the load on the alternator. I didn't try these units but I agree with the fact that these setup won't be able to produce enough energy to compensate with energy lost.

But what if we don't use the alternator or the car battery to connect the hydrogen generator? I'm thinking about adding another source of power to the car to produce the hydrogen. Like using an 12v Marine battery that can provide about 100AH (amp-hour) (it cost about 300$). If you have a device that use 30amp, it could work for about 3hours. Then you can charge your battery at home, with an onboard charger it would be like plugging your car during winter.

If we could save 30% in gaz, it is probably cheaper to charge the battery than fill up in gaz

What do you think about that?

08-05-2008	#34
spockcat Administrator Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: N41 45.19'-W72 39.20' Posts: 3,758 Images: 15	Here is a little science why it won't work: Why on-board hydrogen generators won't boost your mileage - AutoblogGreen Why on-board hydrogen generators won't boost your mileage Posted Aug 4th 2008 at 11:50AM by Sam Abuelsamid Historically whenever gas prices have gone up, charlatans have come out of the woodwork offering drivers all manner of devices that are claimed to provide dramatic reductions in fuel consumption. From magnets that are clamped to fuel lines, to assorted vacuum advance devices, and intake vortex generators and magical carburetors none of these have actually been demonstrated to work. Many of these old school devices can still be found, but one of the most popular new devices is the on-board hydrogen generator and injection system. The basic premise is that injecting hydrogen into the intake stream will displace some of the gasoline required, reducing both gasoline consumption and emissions. Just have hydrogen and injecting it will actually achieve this result since the hydrogen burns and produces only water and trace amounts of NOx (although much lower than gasoline or diesel engines). Burning more hydrogen means less gasoline is consumed. Easy right? Not so fast there buddy! Where does that hydrogen come from? The marketers out there are selling on-board hydrogen generators which are claimed to provide enough hydrogen to reduce gas consumption by 30-40 percent or more. Is this plausible? Not even close. Read on after the jump to find out why. [Sources: Wikipedia, Hypertextbook.com, answers.com] Electrolysis of water is a process that's been known for over two centuries. It's not complicated, just stick a pair of electrodes into water and pass a current through them. Oxygen bubbles will be produced on one electrode and hydrogen on the other. Unfortunately as with all such processes it isn't 100 percent efficient. Some of the electrical energy put into the system is lost as heat. The process has gotten better over the years but it is still about 70 percent efficient at best. If you convert 1 US gallon of water to hydrogen by electrolysis it will yield 420.6 g of hydrogen (H2 gas). If the electrolysis is 100% efficient it will take 16.821 kWh of electricity to crack 1 gallon of water. That 420 g of H2 only has an energy density of 14 kWh (33.3 kWh/kg * .4206). That's 16% more energy to crack the water than you get out of it. At 70 percent efficiency that means it would take about 24 kWh of input energy to produce hydrogen with 14 kWh of energy output. To electrolyze water on the fly means the energy has to come from the engine via the alternator. Whatever electricity the alternator produces has to come from mechanical energy to drive it via the belt from the engine. That means the 24 kWh of energy will ultimately come from the engine while only 14 kWh will get put back in. As a result of this parasitic loss, on board hydrogen generation is an energy negative process that will actually reduce the total fuel efficiency of the vehicle because the load on the engine will be increased. The only way that the fuel consumption of the vehicle can be reduced by hydrogen injection is to produce the hydrogen outside of the vehicle and store it as a gas on board. The total energy requirement doesn't change but off board generation opens up the possibility of using renewable sources like solar and wind to power the electrolysis. With all of those companies selling on board electrolysis systems claiming to reduce fuel consumption there have even been news reports claiming these systems work. The answer to this is cheating. Ask any veteran NASCAR mechanic about places to store extra fuel on board a car. The same thing is being done by these scam artists. They are using stored hydrogen somewhere on board to make it seem as though their systems are beneficial. Hydrogen injection is fine as a stop-gap but the hydrogen must be produced outside the vehicle. If home electrolysis systems or hydrogen filling stations are readily available, existing cars could fairly easily be retro-fitted with injection systems to reduce gasoline consumption. In India they are already experimenting with vehicles fueled by hythane (a blend of natural gas and hydrogen) but that is produced and sold that way. The bottom line is don't waste your money on these devices. Want to save money and use less fuel? Drive less, consolidate trips, drive less aggressively. __________________ Audio - Video - Keyless Start - Dead Pedals - Paddle Shift ==> www.tm-techmark.com/tri.htm

09-15-2008	#35
jfmador Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 1	What about using a second battery Hello there, I read spokecat post and previous post talking about the load on the alternator. I didn't try these units but I agree with the fact that these setup won't be able to produce enough energy to compensate with energy lost. But what if we don't use the alternator or the car battery to connect the hydrogen generator? I'm thinking about adding another source of power to the car to produce the hydrogen. Like using an 12v Marine battery that can provide about 100AH (amp-hour) (it cost about 300$). If you have a device that use 30amp, it could work for about 3hours. Then you can charge your battery at home, with an onboard charger it would be like plugging your car during winter. If we could save 30% in gaz, it is probably cheaper to charge the battery than fill up in gaz What do you think about that?

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07-23-2008	#31
lzvagias Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 12	So back to the thread topic as to whether or not these things work. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I work with a guy that that did buy one of these kits. I can't remember the website but I'll get it from him again and post it here, but he finally got it installed in his truck (a Ford F250 I think). He commutes about 40 miles a day to work and recorded his mileage before the installation and said that he will have the post installation results at the end of the week. He installed it last weekend and topped off his tank Monday morning and said he'll let me know when he has emptied it. I think he said that he was getting about 18 mpg, I asked him today if he noticed any difference in economy and/ or power. I didn't really expect him to say yes to either but he said yes to both! He said that there is a notable gain in horsepower and he said he can already tell that he is getting better gas mileage! He said it's too soon to tell exactly how much better the milage is but he estimated about 10mpg! The kit said that an increase of up to 40% was possible but he believes that he might have even be getting better than that. Now this wasn't one of those kits that was made from crap purchased at Ace hardware (although they might work just as well) this one was about $500 and was very nicely put together and did come with a money back guarantee. If this thing worked at all it would be great but if it actually does meet or excede the 40% improvement (and it appears that it will) that's pretty damn exciting! I'll let you know when the results are in.