Brake Pad Warning, how long do I have? - Page 3 - Club Touareg Forums
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post #21 of 35 Old 08-08-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zegm View Post
Not to bust your bubble but having been responsible for a couple of Euro brake lines and having been trained by some Jurid brake engineers (I am a mechanical engineer with over 15 years of auto design and manufacturing experience), it is NOT common practice to have one set of pads wear out the rotors on Euro Cars. Typically it will take 2 to 3 sets, BUT!!!! My point is that only by measuring the rotors do you really know!
NOW, My own opinion, I am on my second set of pads with my original rotors. Having driven BMWs, Opels, Porsches for over 30 years I will only put OEM pads on them (even when I owned a Chevy Silverado) and Never did I have a rotor failure or brake failure. Keep in mind safety factors, if someone runs their rotor .001 below minimums and you expect this to be critical then you aren't aware of the DFMEAs and the PFMEAs that the factorys do on their products. One of the biggest problems with thin rotors is over travel of the caliber piston, and not that HUGE heavy duty rotor on a Touareg. But again you really have to abuse these systems before you see a failure they are NOT delicate! But Again when in doubt measure and see if it is below the mins. It will take a little more time for the next set of pads to match the profile of the worn rotor but they will!!!! But I be danged if I am going to listen to the dealer or someone like that who tells me what I need to do, especially when they wanted 1200 bucks to change my pads. I spent 190 dollars for front and rear Textars and spent about 2 hours. And the V-10 has been stopping on a dime! Oh and I did this a year ago!
How you chose to run is your business, but I've got 29 years at my job supplying the best brakes in the market to every kind of client or fleet, police, fire, taxi, school, municipal, classic, medium duty, off-road equipment, etc. I am a recognized leader in the hydraulic brakes field, nationwide, attested so by my peers at companies like Wagner and Raybestos, where they recommend my business freely to callers looking for products not found easily or elsewhere. I am a leader in the provision of vintage motorhome brakes.

I have said to clients over and over, feel for the lip at the edge of your rotor, if the lip is one millimeter deep at the outer plate, which is easily felt for through the wheel spokes, then that is equal to the minimum tolerance posted for the disc. One mm... At the outer plate (and one corresponding mm would be found at the Inner plate). The height of a well manicured man's nail! Don't just change the disc Just cause I say so, look at it and you decide, gee, it is worn down progressively, it is at the minimum or thereabouts, and it Will wear down too far below minimum, if I mount new pads, before the useful life of those pads are exhausted. And sooner too, rather than later...i Know this well.

These are Brembo brakes built to specifications all there own, rotor material specs not shared by the rest of the European auto industry per se. The Europeans are much closer to the North Americans in friction and rotor design than the Japanese, for instance, with their undue reliance on ceramic blends. Actually, the N.A.s are bifurcated between ceramics and carbon metallics, or semi-metallics for those who worry about labels. Marketing in friction materials is all abuzz with Vehicle Specific Applications, ie, use the right friction for the right job.

For general consumption, use, and safety, there is no rational re-use of a Touareg rotor after the full consumption of a set of OE pads. The rotors Will measure at or below minimum spec. It is in their specific nature! That is the Brembo design of materials and function.

No one Wants to spend money unnecessarily, I certainly wouldn't, but that doesn't wish away the material realities of these components in our Brembo systems. Is this clear enough ?

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post #22 of 35 Old 08-08-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BonesNTX View Post
I just did one of our Touaregs brakes after about 4,500 miles after the warning came on. Lot's of shoe thickness still left.
You can easily get RAYBESTOS or WAGNER shoes most everywhere for reasonable $.

As well, I am now thouroughly convinced I will have my rotors turned on our other Touareg instead of the so popular "Replace the rotors" every time. Measured mine and had adequate thickness still but they were replaced.

They are just rotors with lots of metal/overall thickness available for turning and new pad install...Kind of like doing a brake job.
The worst thing that could happen after turning them is eventually they could (but won't on just one turning) warp and cause some feedback in the steering wheel = Get new rotors then.

I have removed the PIXIE Dust at least at my house for our Touaregs regarding this "Replace the rotors" every 40K miles falacy.
Ok I wouldn't go with the aftermarket pads and this is coming from a Honeywell/Allied Signal/Bendix/Jurid brake manufacturing engineer. Get some OEMs online they are not that much I paid 190 for both front and rears. But if you have been running OEM style rotors and they are not at min thickness why are you turning them? That is an American way of thinking with American cars. It does work for them but is not needed for the Euro cars unless you got some warpage or something. If they are fine now just install the new pads and be gentle on them for 100 to 200 miles!

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post #23 of 35 Old 08-10-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zegm View Post
Ok I wouldn't go with the aftermarket pads and this is coming from a Honeywell/Allied Signal/Bendix/Jurid brake manufacturing engineer. Get some OEMs online they are not that much I paid 190 for both front and rears.
Man...I need a job where u work at...lol. Honeywell lays off to fast and Allied Sig and Bendix-King products are all over the stuff I work on (which dont mesh well with our application and is a PITA to work on ). Im a ex AF F-16 electrician now building MD helicopters trying to get a job with the UAVs while doing a double major in BioMed Eng and the Nursing program. And I loved going TDY to PCB. Went every year. Ahhh the memories....lol. Anyways, where did you get the F/R setup for that price?

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post #24 of 35 Old 08-10-2010
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Originally Posted by QPower1 View Post
How you chose to run is your business, but I've got 29 years at my job supplying the best brakes in the market to every kind of client or fleet, police, fire, taxi, school, municipal, classic, medium duty, off-road equipment, etc. I am a recognized leader in the hydraulic brakes field, nationwide, attested so by my peers at companies like Wagner and Raybestos, where they recommend my business freely to callers looking for products not found easily or elsewhere. I am a leader in the provision of vintage motorhome brakes.

I have said to clients over and over, feel for the lip at the edge of your rotor, if the lip is one millimeter deep at the outer plate, which is easily felt for through the wheel spokes, then that is equal to the minimum tolerance posted for the disc. One mm... At the outer plate (and one corresponding mm would be found at the Inner plate). The height of a well manicured man's nail! Don't just change the disc Just cause I say so, look at it and you decide, gee, it is worn down progressively, it is at the minimum or thereabouts, and it Will wear down too far below minimum, if I mount new pads, before the useful life of those pads are exhausted. And sooner too, rather than later...i Know this well.

These are Brembo brakes built to specifications all there own, rotor material specs not shared by the rest of the European auto industry per se. The Europeans are much closer to the North Americans in friction and rotor design than the Japanese, for instance, with their undue reliance on ceramic blends. Actually, the N.A.s are bifurcated between ceramics and carbon metallics, or semi-metallics for those who worry about labels. Marketing in friction materials is all abuzz with Vehicle Specific Applications, ie, use the right friction for the right job.

For general consumption, use, and safety, there is no rational re-use of a Touareg rotor after the full consumption of a set of OE pads. The rotors Will measure at or below minimum spec. It is in their specific nature! That is the Brembo design of materials and function.

No one Wants to spend money unnecessarily, I certainly wouldn't, but that doesn't wish away the material realities of these components in our Brembo systems. Is this clear enough ?
My business was making brakes for Mercedes Benz here in the US.
I am also familiar with and was responsible for the Ford F150 brakes, front and rear. This experience goes from being taught by the friction engineers about the mix. Then to the mix room, the the presses, to the oven, to the grinder, to the powder coating process, to the application of the anti squeal bads and then to packout. Each and every step has a QA process, some of which are shear strength, compressibility and dyno testing etc. to name a few. Lots of SPC charts. ALL were OEM pads heading to either ATE, or Bosch and ALL requiring PPAPs, Control Plans, Work Instructions, DFMEAs, PFMEAs to meet the requirements of Mercedes and Ford. Now our aftermarket plant in Elberton GA made aftermarket brakes for just about everything so I am familiar with OEM AND aftermarket brakes. There are almost NO requirements on aftermarket brakes, so sell what you want and sell it cheap because there is no QA cost involved! But in my above posts I said to quantify it! That means to measure it and I would hope that if something is as critical as you make it out to be (and again I have a different opinion about this) I would NOT use my fingernail but actually use a Micrometer!
Now it appears you are in a sales capacity and I can't blame you for wanting to sell more rotors so in that issue I can respect you. But supplying is one thing, spending 18 months designing just one product line (application) and then the process to manufacture them to exacting standards while Mercedes is watching you is another. In other words I know about brakes, especially Euro brakes. If you think there is ONLY a 1 mm safety factor with these rotors, oh excuse me one fingernail width.......well, again Push your theory and sell more rotors. Brembos I hope! Better be because it is a delicate balanced system. Just tell that to all the other owners who have mixed and matched rotors and pads all over this board but not to me! I am good.


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post #25 of 35 Old 08-10-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1BadAssT-Rex View Post
Man...I need a job where u work at...lol. Honeywell lays off to fast and Allied Sig and Bendix-King products are all over the stuff I work on (which dont mesh well with our application and is a PITA to work on ). Im a ex AF F-16 electrician now building MD helicopters trying to get a job with the UAVs while doing a double major in BioMed Eng and the Nursing program. And I loved going TDY to PCB. Went every year. Ahhh the memories....lol. Anyways, where did you get the F/R setup for that price?
Hey when Honeywell shut all of its OEM plants in the US I got a job as an engineer working with the US Navy on the MH60 helicopter! I can't really say what I do but it is very interesting!
OK about where I got the brakes, I have to see if the box has the name of the company who I purchased them from on it. They were Textars (Germany) and they were listed for the Cayanne S, the Touareg V-10 and the Audi Q7. Problem is the wife cleaned the computer a few months back and deleted my favorites! What can I say she is an electrical engineer and I am sure you know how they are!
F-16s Cool, pretty airplane!!! Tyndall AFB here has the F-22 and the F-15 and a few F-4's like the one I saw landing today! I hear they tow target sleds!!!

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post #26 of 35 Old 08-10-2010
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F-16s Cool, pretty airplane!!! Tyndall AFB here has the F-22 and the F-15 and a few F-4's like the one I saw landing today! I hear they tow target sleds!!!
Yea...I was going to work for the IT AF on their lease of 16's in Sicily but decided that the money is in UAV/UCAVs...or Predator/Reapers as they call em now. I have a few options with NASA on the 16 but holding off to see if I can pull this gig. Looks promising and Ive always wanted to work em. Tyndall was awesome. Had my incentive flight to a max climb of 18k' and d the rest after the negative recovery. Who knows....I might try for the 22. When I was there last in 03 or 04 they only had like 8 22's. I then noticed where all the Kevlar and CF was going.... They were still certing the Mode 4 so it needed a chase plane. The 15's always blew tires there on landing and the F-4's always towed drones. They even blew up a F-4 by accident when I was there... And if you cant say what you do....I have a good guess on what you do. There are only a handful of jobs at Tyndall that still under wraps. Eglin would be nice working on 35 OT&E !!

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post #27 of 35 Old 08-10-2010
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Oh yea....back to the 50th boring brake pad debate....

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post #28 of 35 Old 08-10-2010
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Zegm - thanks for the excellent insight! And too for the heat transfer issue and excessive caliper piston travel issue with worn pads. Never thought about those before except "there's still friction materials left".

When you mention "OEM" would you say the same level of quality goes into, for example, the Pagids that online stores sell vs the Pagids coming from VW?



Quote:
Originally Posted by zegm View Post
My business was making brakes for Mercedes Benz here in the US.
I am also familiar with and was responsible for the Ford F150 brakes, front and rear. This experience goes from being taught by the friction engineers about the mix. Then to the mix room, the the presses, to the oven, to the grinder, to the powder coating process, to the application of the anti squeal bads and then to packout. Each and every step has a QA process, some of which are shear strength, compressibility and dyno testing etc. to name a few. Lots of SPC charts. ALL were OEM pads heading to either ATE, or Bosch and ALL requiring PPAPs, Control Plans, Work Instructions, DFMEAs, PFMEAs to meet the requirements of Mercedes and Ford. Now our aftermarket plant in Elberton GA made aftermarket brakes for just about everything so I am familiar with OEM AND aftermarket brakes. There are almost NO requirements on aftermarket brakes, so sell what you want and sell it cheap because there is no QA cost involved! But in my above posts I said to quantify it! That means to measure it and I would hope that if something is as critical as you make it out to be (and again I have a different opinion about this) I would NOT use my fingernail but actually use a Micrometer!
Now it appears you are in a sales capacity and I can't blame you for wanting to sell more rotors so in that issue I can respect you. But supplying is one thing, spending 18 months designing just one product line (application) and then the process to manufacture them to exacting standards while Mercedes is watching you is another. In other words I know about brakes, especially Euro brakes. If you think there is ONLY a 1 mm safety factor with these rotors, oh excuse me one fingernail width.......well, again Push your theory and sell more rotors. Brembos I hope! Better be because it is a delicate balanced system. Just tell that to all the other owners who have mixed and matched rotors and pads all over this board but not to me! I am good.
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post #29 of 35 Old 08-11-2010
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ive got the "brake pressure sensor light on but no abs warning . anyone know roughly if this is an easy fix and is it correct that its located behind fuse box? as im going to fix it myself . wish me luck my email is colinjackson_5@hotmail.com please help lol
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post #30 of 35 Old 08-13-2010
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Badazz,

I wouldn't say what I am doing with the Navy is top secret but it would not be something that should be posted on a board that anyone could view. My work involves developing new defensive equipment.

My son has a friend and his dad worked on F-15's as a contractor but he got a job working on the Predator but is now in Iraq. I hear he is making really good money but he will be away from home and kids for 6 months.

Tell me what is the landing speed of the F-22, they seem to hang in the air on final when they go over my plant! I know they must not weight anything!

SamT,
At my brake plant Almost every pad went into a huge plastic tote and off to the caliper plants. We did make some service pads from time to time and they would be the pads you would buy at the Ford or Mercedes parts counter. It was weird when we made these as we did have to put them in "Original Merceds Labeled Boxes". We actually hired handicapped people from a local organization and they performed this work and they did it Well but it wasn't often. But we didn't sell Jurid pads for NAPA there. As you noticed it is difficult to find OEM style pads but there are some stores that do it and many online companies that bring them over.
Now I was good friends with the German Engineers and I always felt confident that it might not be the same mix in the aftermarket pads that came out of Europe but the quality was still there and I have never had a problem with them. In the past 30 years of driving Euro cars I have used Textar, ATE, Pagid, Jurid (Honeywell Allied Signal) and Ferrodo and never had a problem with any althought they worked better when they had abestos in them (later I will explain why Germany was first with abestos free products, something to do with WWII and blockcading them). With my first Euro car I just went down to the auto parts store and just bought some pads. Within a week my rotors were warped so bad I couldn't hold on to the steering wheel. It was then that I decided to only use OEM pads, of course after I had to get new rotors and pads. I have NEVER turned a Euro rotor, with the right pads they turn themselves and are always true until the day they are too thin. As far as Governmental issues with Brake Pads we built here (OEM) the only agency that required anything was the state of New York. The US DOT never required anything from us and I never saw a requirment from them it always came from the Teir Ones we were working with. Now I am sure you heard of TUV but I am not sure their involvement with aftermarket pads in Germany but knowing the Germans like I do I am sure they have their hands in it!
Another thing about the fixed piston calipers, the spring/clip that you have to remove to get the pads out is usually about the same thickness as the rotor. When the pads get real worn this will stop the travel on the pads at that location. But it won't stop the piston from moving completely. When the pads are at that point you can usually feel the pedal effort going up. And I have seen the pads pivot up there and wear the brake material off the opposite end of the pads. In 30 years of having a bunch of Euro car friends knowing Euro car shop owners and racing cars I have seen 2 major brake failures. One guy kept using the brakes long after the pads hit this spring/clip (keep in mind that in the late 70's and early 80's many German cars then had fixed piston calipers like our Brembos where as today, like BMW uses they are floating calipers). The brake material was completely gone and he started eating into the rotor , metal to metal but down near the hub. It ate way into the rotor there. He then had an emergency stop and he sheared the rotor off the hub. It was like a hula hoop then. Just spinning around. And then I have seen almost the same situation but this guy completely worn the pad material away and the piston in the caliper finally hit the rotor. It cocked sideways so bad it cracked the caliper and he lost all the fluid and his brakes as well. Neither person had an accident luckily, it was the case of people driving their cars with NO money to repair them. Sort of like the 5th owner of a 1979 BMW 320i. Good car but not as good as my 1979 BMW/Hartge 323i!

2006 V-10 TDI
2010 JSW TDI 6-speed (Totaled)
2007 Porsche Carrera (Replaced the JSW)
2007 BMW M5 6- speed
2005 BMW M3 ZCP
2012 VW GTI 6- speed
2013 KTM 990 SMT
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